Determining the customer's budget

[Frosty]

Bidding work is make or break no matter what you do, from the neighbor kid mowing lawns and raking leaves to Morton Thiokol building solid rocket boosters.

Experience will give you a good idea how long and how much work a particular job will require. You can and I did keep track of production times for particular elements and processes to assist bidding. Materials have a lot more effect than just initial costs, SS is WAY more work than mild as does tool steel or exotics.

It's really common for folk to want "traditional" work for Sears prices. I send em to Sears if that's what they want, no problem and I'll do the job if they decide to pay the rate.

I can and do fab jobs for folk and it's typically a LOT less expensive than hand forged.

I have a shop rate, if someone wants to pay shop rate for me to use methods and tools a couple thousand years out of date, and pay for helpers, no problem, 50% up front and no refunds has taken care of this kind of thing.

If someone can do the desired job for less, good for them I'll send them business. I have no heartburn with competition and NO, the customer is NOT always right. I do just fine charging premium rates for premium work. I have no emotional investment in my work or reputation, it doesn't pay.

I NEVER blow smoke on any count except maybe for coffee shop entertainment or tale telling.

I charge for design time unless we're talking coffee shop napkin sketches. I don't procure or cut material or light a fire based on napkin sketches, unless we're handshake friends. Contracts are good things. My handshake customers have never griped about either the work nor the price and I don't usually give em a break.

Installation is the customer's dime as is contractor vaguery. You get what you pay for and you sure as heck pay for what you get.

If you get every bid you're under pricing the market. If you aren't getting any bids you're over pricing the market. It's what makes the free market work.

Hand made in a cheap cookie cutter product market is a matter of bragging rights. Buying bragging rights is expensive and you better believe I charge premium rates for bragging rights. If hand made is a matter of the only way something can be had I charge fair value for it.

This is anything but an easy or formula solved subject and it's always worth discussion and consideration.

Frosty the Lucky.

[HWHII]

Lots of good advise here. I am going to apply some of it to my sales practices. Another practice that helps me is when I meet with a client along with my portfolio I also bring along one or two coffee table books like "Iron Work Today Inside & Out" To help them understand what is truely available to them. Most clients do not understand what is available for them and it is true, a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Mainely,Bob]

Lots of good advise here. I am going to apply some of it to my sales practices. Another practice that helps me is when I meet with a client along with my portfolio I also bring along one or two coffee table books like "Iron Work Today Inside & Out" To help them understand what is truely available to them. Most clients do not understand what is available for them and it is true, a picture is worth a thousand words.

More than once customers have pointed to my cloth binder of pictures and referred to it as my "portfolio".I guess I should dress it up with some hand worked copper and a forged latch,huh?
Maybe bring a bronze ink well and a quill pen to sign things with.

Just kidding,I do get a lot of comments about my custom turned wood pen though. :)

[HWooldridge]

Couple more thoughts since my last post:

For several years, I've had a hollow core door hanging on its side inside the shop for show and tell (I took it down recently for refinishing but is eventually going back up). It has been stained and finished as a backdrop then mounted with examples of forged vs. fabbed items shown side-by-side. I originally built it when we were doing craft shows so people could see the differences. One series has a bent "burglar bar" scroll side by side with forged examples. I also have a wall sconce, some basic plant hangers and a few other things attached, along with brief captions if people want to take a moment to read about the process. When this is paired with portfolio photographs, you can see the lights go on upstairs and people start to see the architectual and textural options that forged elements can provide.

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet in this thread, but Yellin was famous for his "sketches in iron" where he personally worked out various elements in commissions. These usually wound up in his collection and provided a hands-on experience for the customer. I have taken the same concept and provided examples of texture for customers to select, with the caveat that whatever they choose will not be repetitive like a machine, but will have some general consistency from one type to another (in other words, a hand-hammered look will be different from a bar forged on the power hammer).

I find that making just some basic samples will often close a deal when a customer is wavering over cost and also provides concrete evidence of the smith's skill rather than simply working from a pencil drawing.

[Dragons lair]

I have learned to not care what the clients budget is. Got tired of folks wanting
SS or aluminum tig work for $5 a weld. I charge by the hour( I'll even let them watch) No more bring your own steel. To much cut up scrapyard stuff. If it's clean or new OK. Ask them if they want to pay me to weld ,cut grind and clean their scrap. Price is posted with 1/2 hr min. Still when the old farm wives come in and need Dads cane repaired thats a N/C. I also warantee 90% of what I do. So if I am not happy with the job I pass. Like rotten truck frames,damaged alloy wheels. Old nasty cast iron, Header pipes(with gas,oil and brake fluid leaking
and laying in 3 inches of mud)Now I admit to having almost closed the welding,
blacksmithing,CNC shop due to a great saleryed job so its's not like i have to do the crap jobs any more.
Ken.

[Mainely,Bob]

I have learned to not care what the clients budget is. Got tired of folks wanting
SS or aluminum tig work for $5 a weld. I charge by the hour( I'll even let them watch) No more bring your own steel. To much cut up scrapyard stuff. If it's clean or new OK. Ask them if they want to pay me to weld ,cut grind and clean their scrap. Price is posted with 1/2 hr min. Still when the old farm wives come in and need Dads cane repaired thats a N/C. I also warantee 90% of what I do. So if I am not happy with the job I pass. Like rotten truck frames,damaged alloy wheels. Old nasty cast iron, Header pipes(with gas,oil and brake fluid leaking
and laying in 3 inches of mud)Now I admit to having almost closed the welding,
blacksmithing,CNC shop due to a great saleryed job so its's not like i have to do the crap jobs any more.
Ken.

As the old hands used to say;
"Once you pay your dues,you get to pick and choose". ;)

[arftist]

Seems like you need to be able to say something like: "Well, you can buy cheap ready-made kitchen cabinets or custom ones at various price levels. When you shop for anything that comes in varying quality and price, your budget is very important. I just need some idea of your expectations and budget".

Never been in that situation.

Good summary Grant. I didn't experience the situation either, when I did millwright work just since I got into artistic commisions. Some people want the simplest cheapest thing that will meet the building code. Others want funtional art. The idea is to find what they want to spend then design/build to that.

[arftist]

Lots of good advise here. I am going to apply some of it to my sales practices. Another practice that helps me is when I meet with a client along with my portfolio I also bring along one or two coffee table books like "Iron Work Today Inside & Out" To help them understand what is truely available to them. Most clients do not understand what is available for them and it is true, a picture is worth a thousand words.

This is a good idea. My business is near the Newport mansions, some of the most incredible ironwork on this side of the Atlantic ocean. I asume that people know the possibilities of iron, yet often they don't. Being able to show some of the infinite directions possible could help.

[arftist]

Couple more thoughts since my last post:

For several years, I've had a hollow core door hanging on its side inside the shop for show and tell (I took it down recently for refinishing but is eventually going back up). It has been stained and finished as a backdrop then mounted with examples of forged vs. fabbed items shown side-by-side. I originally built it when we were doing craft shows so people could see the differences. One series has a bent "burglar bar" scroll side by side with forged examples. I also have a wall sconce, some basic plant hangers and a few other things attached, along with brief captions if people want to take a moment to read about the process. When this is paired with portfolio photographs, you can see the lights go on upstairs and people start to see the architectual and textural options that forged elements can provide.

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet in this thread, but Yellin was famous for his "sketches in iron" where he personally worked out various elements in commissions. These usually wound up in his collection and provided a hands-on experience for the customer. I have taken the same concept and provided examples of texture for customers to select, with the caveat that whatever they choose will not be repetitive like a machine, but will have some general consistency from one type to another (in other words, a hand-hammered look will be different from a bar forged on the power hammer).

I find that making just some basic samples will often close a deal when a customer is wavering over cost and also provides concrete evidence of the smith's skill rather than simply working from a pencil drawing.

I like making samples a lot better than making drawings and sometimes get out of the drawing process by producing samples instead. The beauty of the samples is the aid to the pricing process.

[John McPherson]

This guy, Michael Stone, was a guest speaker at a NOMMA convention a few years ago. He has a free email newsletter, books, and a personal training service. He says it all a lot better than I can. No, I don't get a dime from this, and you might be able to get his book thru inter-library loan.


http://www.markupandprofit.com/