A few noobie questions I need to get out of the way

[Dustin]

So bear with me here, I'm still a blacksmith noobie and before I put hammer to metal I want to make sure I understand a majority of things first. I guess it's the way I was raised, I research as much as I can so I can have a better understanding going into it and so I can know what to expect for the most part.

So here is a little list of things I'm having trouble understanding.

1) Borax - (and or the white powder I see people putting on the hot steel) what is it, what does it do and do you need to have it
2) Water or Oil - Which is better for tempering or if not "better" what's the difference. I've heard of people using cooking oil
3) Annealing / Temping / Harding - Couldn't find a resource out there that really explains these in a step to step. I understand you form the metal, then you need to harden it and cure it but I don't know which steps these go in or the proper terms or how to do so. My understanding is when you are done with the blade you heat it then let it air cool, then heat up again and dunk it in water? From there I'm lost.
4) Galvanized - Whats the easiest way to identifiably pick this out so I know never to use it.

Thanks, I'm sure I'll have more noob questions down the way as I'm learning but I've been watching videos for the last 5 hours about blacksmithing and those are the ones that have been wracking my head.

[j.w.s.]

1) Short answer: Used as flux for forge welding. If this is going to be your first time picking up a hammer I think we'll save welding for lessen 2 or 3. So you can skip that.

2) Depends on the steel you're using - different steels call for different quenchants. An O1 (O in this case stands for oil) will often times crack if quenched in water. Plus water makes uneven contact because of dissolved gases which tend to make bubbles when it comes to hot steel - the bubbles stick to the metal, especially in any holes or recesses and cause dead spots where the metal may be softer and eventually crack or warp. That's generally the case for tool steels. There are others that don't mind it.

3. http://en.wikipedia....heat_treatments / Annealing = High Temp (1500f +-), long slow cool-down to soften the metal to a desirable workability. Typically a file will bite into the steel very well. / Hardening = High Temp, quench to harden the metal. A file should slide off without leaving a mark. / Tempering = Heating the steel up to a lower temperature (350f to 1050f range) depending on its composition, desired hardness and intended use. Time varies. Done tempers at 750 for 18 minutes, I've done tempers at 425 for 2 hours - all depends on the steel. Tempering is like giving a backrub to your significant other, it relieves the stress and allows you to do things with it that you couldn't do until that stress was relieved.

- side note: Don't use the term "dunk", especially not around a blacksmith who has just woken up and desperately needs a coffee and a sour cream doughnut this particular rainy morning.

4. Galvanized has a sort of unpolished aluminum foil look to it. It's a thin coating of zinc that's usually applied in a hot-bath to iron, steel and aluminum. It supposedly stops rust - I personally burn it off in the forge. This is not a great practice as it can cause metal fume fever. There's nothing wrong with the steel underneath it's just that getting it to a safe workability is not something that people like to encourage.


Hope it gave you a little more understanding.

-J

[Thomas Dean]

4. Galvanized has a sort of unpolished aluminum foil look to it. It's a thin coating of zinc that's usually applied in a hot-bath to iron, steel and aluminum. It supposedly stops rust - I personally burn it off in the forge. This is not a great practice as it can cause metal fume fever. There's nothing wrong with the steel underneath it's just that getting it to a safe workability is not something that people like to encourage.


Hope it gave you a little more understanding.

-J

Ask Jim "Paw-Paw" Wilson about burning off galvanize in your forge...oh, sorry you can't do that because he's dead....from burning off galvanize in his forge....

[ThomasPowers]

What; nothing in "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade" all by James Hrisoulas gave good info on heat treating when you ILL'd it at your local library?

Or to put it another way "proper" research is more than just using the internet. I've met quite a few people who seem to have a problem understanding that several hundred pages of a book written by a known authority on a subject cannot be substituted by a web page or two written by *anyone*! We get a lot of folk who are totally clueless putting up pages on "How to Do X" when they have done it maybe once (and poorly at that). When students tell me "But I saw 'it' on the net"; I generally tell them "Give me half an hour and I'll have a webpage up claiming that they are the love child of Elvis and an alien creature".(which may, in fact. be true for some of them...)

So I strongly suggest you go to the local public library and if they don't have a copy of "The Complete Bladesmith"; go ask at the desk about Inter library Loan. Read the section on alloys and heat treating and I'd bet you will have a much better idea of the hows and whys involved.

Where the internet excels is when you have a question about your reading/research and can get answers from a range of people with *experience*.

I live in a small town in New Mexico; but with ILL I can get books from 90+ other libraries including several universities and it costs me US$1 per book! Its a great way to pre-view books I may want to buy or to get hold of books that can't be found for sale! (even on the internet...)

[Dustin]

Thank you guys so much

You know I went to the book store yesterday in hopes to find some metal working books so I could learn things like these and more, but they didn't even have any which was a shock to me. Maybe I'll check the library today but thank you for that nice bit of knowledge, I can stop scratching a bald spot into my head.

[CurlyGeorge]

Careful with the "bald" jokes, Dustin. There are several of us on here that are "follicly challenged"!! It's from trying to think too hard, you know. PS- Notice my user name. :)

[Dustin]

Oh don't worry George I fully understand. I'm 24 years old and just recently accepted the fact that I'm balding. Oh well, just lets me expand my hat collection lol.

[pkrankow]

There are a number of ways to strip zinc besides heat.

One "safe" way is to use vinegar (slow) or muriatic acid (fast) to etch the zinc off. This produces both hydrogen gas and aerosol acid (whichever you are using) so care needs to be taken to prevent aerosols (cover it with a vented lid) and the explosive hazard of hydrogen. (work outside). Vinegar is significantly safer.

Vinegar can also be used to remove scale and prepare for finishing. Just soak overnight.

Phil

[Dustin]

Vinegar can also be used to remove scale and prepare for finishing. Just soak overnight.

Phil

Are you talking about the scale from the temping process? I've noticed in a lot of videos after the item is cooled in oil it's caked with a thick black layer.

[Sam Falzone]

Hi Dustin.
I found heat treating / tempering really confusing. I read everything I could find on it, and several people here on IFI tried to explain it to me as well. But truthfully I didn't get a real grasp on it until a few weeks ago when I took a blacksmithing course and actually had someone show me the process, and then walk me through it a few times until I was heat treating my own punches by the end of the week. Research is all good but actually doing it with some guidance is better.
Try to find a blacksmith's association or group near you and get to know them - become a member, attend some meetings and hammering sessions. Maybe you could talk someone into tutoring you on heat treating and any other skill you want to learn.
If you can afford it, I also recommend taking a beginners blacksmithing course - not only are they greatly informative, they are loads of fun too. I took my course at Touchstone in Pennsylvania. I know that's a bit far from Washington, but there may be other schools or blacksmiths who offer courses near you.
Good luck. Have fun.

[ThomasPowers]

No just the iron oxide forge scale. Oil Quench crud isn't cleaned off with vinegar. Degreaser and abrasion mostly are used for it.

[Dustin]

I did find a guy who is offering classes in blacksmithing and knife making. Each class is 3 days and he is charging $400 each with intermediate and beginner so I'd be looking at about $1,600. Hope I can find something cheaper.

It's starting to amaze me how rare of a hobby this is. I went to the library today and they only had one book and it was only on making horse shoes Still trying to find a club near me but that ABANA site isn't very user friendly so it's taking me some time.

[j.w.s.]

Ask Jim "Paw-Paw" Wilson about burning off galvanize in your forge...oh, sorry you can't do that because he's dead....from burning off galvanize in his forge....

Just another reason why I pack the forge with pieces to be stripped, ignite it, turn on the ventilation, open the bay doors and leave for about 20 minutes. I keep respirators nearby too.

[edge9001]

Just another reason why I pack the forge with pieces to be stripped, ignite it, turn on the ventilation, open the bay doors and leave for about 20 minutes. I keep respirators nearby too.

When ever I have to burn off galvanized metal I do it in a fire outside and I go back inside.

[CurlyGeorge]

JWS, look at the residue that is still on your coke after you burn it off. After hearing Paw Paw's story, a few years ago, I decided to Never again burn of galvanize. Mild steel isn't that expensive to make it worth taking the chance.

[Chuck Richards]

Dustin,

I would highly recommend getting involved with the American Bladesmith Society. There are many smiths in the northwest that would probably allow you to come over to the shop and pick their brain for a while. I would offer if you are ever in the Salem Or area. There is a Master Smith in Walla Walla which is closer to you I believe. I also second getting as many books on the subject as you can afford. You can occasionally find one at the bookstore but most will have to be purchased on-line. The $50 knifeshop is a great beginner book. Good luck and keep asking questions.

[ThomasPowers]

So while you were at the library did you ILL "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith and the Pattern Welded Blade" all by James Hrisoulas.

Even our small town library here in New Mexico can ILL almost any book for me including rare ones from university libraries.

Inter Library Loan is one of the great tools for people interested in odd things and living in small towns!

(And lets here it for Ben Franklin and Andrew Carnegie too!)

[double_edge2]

There are a number of ways to strip zinc besides heat.

One "safe" way is to use vinegar (slow) or muriatic acid (fast) to etch the zinc off. This produces both hydrogen gas and aerosol acid (whichever you are using) so care needs to be taken to prevent aerosols (cover it with a vented lid) and the explosive hazard of hydrogen. (work outside). Vinegar is significantly safer.

Vinegar can also be used to remove scale and prepare for finishing. Just soak overnight.

Phil
[/quote





on the topic of gal removing, as phil said,

our club engineer.....looks cool when you say it like that ay Mat?......eh hem.....did a test with vinegar. no brand no qual. woolies type, and some steel with a gal coating.
left it in overnight and, hey presto....no gal, and shiny enough steel it was like tig on stainless.

my forges are outdoors, and even if the wind isn't going in to the next door neighbours back door,

i still dont let it burn off, i still heat and brush when no one is around, or if time permits, the slower non lethal vinegar.

[Nik Hintz]

A solution of copper sulfate in water will remove zinc fairly quickly, and is not particularly nasty to work with. It will, after long exposure, begin to etch the steel, but very slowly. Most any hardware store will sell it as root killer for septic systems or buried pipes.
I have been working on a way to make copper sulfate work on pattern welded steel, but need some more testing to work the bugs out. I'll post it up once it is figured out.