carburizing and anvil?

[^MG]

Ok so here's the deal. Years ago I was given, yes given, a Peter Wright anvil. It was given to me just as I completed horseshoeing school by a dear friend. You see, it was his grandfathers anvil. His grandfather must have turned hundreds of shoes on this anvil, because it had bellys in the horn. The face also had quite a belly in it. Not knowing proper anvil loving etiquette, I foolishly had the anvil faced. The level of the face is still above the steps but I can't seem to find a definite weld line as to where the top plate ends and the wroght begins. I can tell you that the face that exists today is pretty soft regardless of what material it is. A couple slight mis-strikes with a hammer yielded a couple nice dimples. I have been working on fixing the horn recently, and have been doing pretty well. I have not yet been able to get to the point where I can put a hard facing weld on it, as I am not that far along yet. My questions for the masses are 1) If there is still some steel from the top plate left and it is just simply soft, can I send it somewhere to be carburized, and 2) If the top plate was completely removed and now my face is only wrought iron, can the wrought iron face be carburized to a decent Rockwell hardness? My initial thought is that wrought iron is a ferrous metal so it should be able to be carburized, but I don't know how the silica in the iron will affect that process. I'd love to bring this anvil back to life after I foolishly hurt it. Any ideas gang?

[MLMartin]

when you say faced, do you mean that some one with and grinder, or a mill cut away the top steel plate until it was perfectly flat?
if you take some good pictures of the anvil it may help us to know whats going on. you can also lay the anvil on its side and clean the top side (where you think the face weld line should be)and pore a little vinegar on it, after a few hours or a day the vinegar will etch a little line were the weld is, if it has not been cut off.

[ThomasPowers]

If any of the face is left it is already a carbon steel why would you carburize it? Do you mean send it out to be hardened?

More likely the face is gone and your best bet is welding on a new face----full penetration weld(s) or building up the face with a stouter rod or wire. (hardfacing is not generally suggested as it has a different use case than anvil facing.)


Note that it may be faster and cheaper to just buy another anvil!

[MattBower]

No, as a practical matter I don't think there's any way to carburize a wrought iron anvil face sufficiently to turn it into a real, hardened steel anvil face. Although it's temperature dependent, as a general rule carbon penetrates iron quite slowly. With pack carburizing, at 1800 F you might get a case depth of 0.01" per hour. At that rate you're talking dozens of hours to get a meaningful thickness of steel. You'd probably also get blisters on the anvil face. Then you'd have to heat treat the thing, which is not a simple thing to do well. When industry carburizes, they're looking at depths of hundredths or thousandths of an inch. You're talking half an inch or more.

If you've milled off most or all of the steel face I would tend to think your best bet is probably to reface it with hardfacing electrode.

[Tom W]

As noted above, carburizing is seldom done more than .030 inches thick with hardnesses up to RC60. A case like this would probably dent on top and chip on the corners. Welding hardface would probably be the best.
Tom

[^MG]

If any of the face is left it is already a carbon steel why would you carburize it? Do you mean send it out to be hardened?

More likely the face is gone and your best bet is welding on a new face----full penetration weld(s) or building up the face with a stouter rod or wire. (hardfacing is not generally suggested as it has a different use case than anvil facing.)


Note that it may be faster and cheaper to just buy another anvil!

Well all, thanks all for your time and consideration of this matter. I hate like crazy that I may have hurt this anvil. I still have yet to determine if there is any face plate left on the anvil. I hope to do so the next time that I get a chance to go up to my buddy's shop where the anvil is currently sleeping. I am sure that it would be much easier and cheaper to just get another anvil. The crux of the matter is that the anvil was given to me by a dear friend in the confidence that I would keep it forever and take care of it. I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility to my friend, his grandfather, and the anvil itself. The whole idea of carburizing the anvil came to me in a journal article about a farrier from Wyoming that had had a real bad fire in his shop. The fire was so intensely hot that it softened his Hay Budden. He was able to get the anvil carburized to 50 rockwell and return it to its original hardness. I understand that my anvil situation is quite different than his. Not only are the anvils made of different raw materials, my face plate may be gone. Also, to answer the gentleman that asked if I had the anvil faced by a milling machine or had someone take a grinder to it, the answer is that a milling machine took the belly out until the face was flat and plainer. That was a friend of a friend that owed me a favor kind of situation. To answer the other question posed to me, "If there is still face plate left on top, why have it carburized when it is already carbon steel?" The answer to that question is because if there is some steel left on the face, it is soft. I dinged the face of the anvil 2 times as I was rounding some heel checks into a few horseshoes that I was making and it dimpled the face a bit. This suggests to me that the anvil is softer than my everyday anvil that I use to modify keg shoes. That anvil is 48 rockwell, and I haven't hardly hurt the surface at all after years of use. The PW that I would like to get working is far superior for hand making shoes than the flat horned everyday anvil that I use daily. Possibly I can come up with a resolution to this by continuing to read what all you folks have to say. Thanks to all that have replied to my post. Don't feel shy about pitching in a few more words that may help me.

[MattBower]

If the face is still steel, but somehow softened, it doesn't need to be carburized. The carbon is already there. It just needs to be heat treated -- which is not a simple thing for a mass that size. But unless it was in a fire large enough to get the whole anvil quite hot, I don't know why the steel face would be soft. It seems much more likely that it was milled away.

[^MG]

No, as a practical matter I don't think there's any way to carburize a wrought iron anvil face sufficiently to turn it into a real, hardened steel anvil face. Although it's temperature dependent, as a general rule carbon penetrates iron quite slowly. With pack carburizing, at 1800 F you might get a case depth of 0.01" per hour. At that rate you're talking dozens of hours to get a meaningful thickness of steel. You'd probably also get blisters on the anvil face. Then you'd have to heat treat the thing, which is not a simple thing to do well. When industry carburizes, they're looking at depths of hundredths or thousandths of an inch. You're talking half an inch or more.

If you've milled off most or all of the steel face I would tend to think your best bet is probably to reface it with hardfacing electrode.

Well, my lack of knowledge here is catching up with me. I am hoping to get some clarification on your last suggestion. You though that my best bet would be to reface the anvil with hardfacing electrode. When you use the term "hardfacing electrode" are you referring to stick welding the anvil with hard facing rod over the entire face and then having it milled flat again, or is that another technique that I am not familiar with. Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it

[pkrankow]

a well proven set of directions


a discussion to different manners of repair

both have links too
Phil

[Dragons lair]

Ya need to put up some pics. Unless ya have a good background in welding Find someone who is a welder and has repaired anvils before. There are several posts here on anvil repair. Hardface comes in many forms. Underlay,
abraiaison resistant and impact resistant. Rockwell varies about 30 points. Some listed As welded some after work hardening. Tell us where ya are someone here may be close.
Ken.

[^MG]

Ya need to put up some pics. Unless ya have a good background in welding Find someone who is a welder and has repaired anvils before. There are several posts here on anvil repair. Hardface comes in many forms. Underlay,
abraiaison resistant and impact resistant. Rockwell varies about 30 points. Some listed As welded some after work hardening. Tell us where ya are someone here may be close.
Ken.

I am in Lynchburg VA. As per the request of one of the other members that responded, I got in touch of my friend where my anvil is currently sleeping, and asked him to put a little vinegar at the point where we believe there may be some top plate left. I will have more answers for everyone once I know how much, if any, top plate is left. I suppose that I need to know that info before I proceed any further. I hope to have that info soon. Also, the next time that I get up to my buddies shop, I will take some pics. I have been reading several of the threads on anvil repair. Wow, there is a veritable cornucopia on info out there (he he I said cornucopia) on anvil repair. So much in fact that my head is kinda spinning. Thanks again to all that have responded, hope to hear from ya'll soon.

Matt Grimm

[ThomasPowers]

OK first of all you are having problems with the terminology: 50RC is a *hardness* Carburizing refers to adding carbon to the steel. You cannot "carburize to a hardness". Hardness is a function of carbon and alloy content and Heat Treat. You can carburize a piece of steel for 2 weeks and it will still be dead soft *unless* it's heat treated to be hard.

That anvil that went through a fire did not need carburizing. It needed re-heat treating. Not that hard but you always run the risk of catastrophic failure doing it.

Old steel tended to be fairy straight iron/carbon alloys and so were shallow hardening and so you might have some plate left that might be re-hardenable. (See Charles McRaven's "Country Blacksmithing" for a description of how he heat treated an anvil.

However if it's thin you really need to build it back up---last time our local club had an anvil repair clinic it took over 5 hours for a professional weldor with professional equipment to build and grind a proper face on an anvil that had been milled too thin. (remember as a high carbon piece it needs preheat and post heat too!----make sure the weldor actually *KNOWS* about anvils! Machinists and Weldors cause more damage to anvils than probably *anything* else! If a machinist offers to mill your anvil flat for you ask if you can first straighten nails on the ways of his mill with a 4# hammer!)

May I suggest to everyone that if someone gives you an heirloom *anything*; you research first *before* doing major work on it! (I've had to tell a fellow that by wirebrushing off the rust on a japanese sword tang he had dropped the value by about $5000 once)

[^MG]

OK first of all you are having problems with the terminology: 50RC is a *hardness* Carburizing refers to adding carbon to the steel. You cannot "carburize to a hardness". Hardness is a function of carbon and alloy content and Heat Treat. You can carburize a piece of steel for 2 weeks and it will still be dead soft *unless* it's heat treated to be hard.

That anvil that went through a fire did not need carburizing. It needed re-heat treating. Not that hard but you always run the risk of catastrophic failure doing it.

Old steel tended to be fairy straight iron/carbon alloys and so were shallow hardening and so you might have some plate left that might be re-hardenable. (See Charles McRaven's "Country Blacksmithing" for a description of how he heat treated an anvil.

However if it's thin you really need to build it back up---last time our local club had an anvil repair clinic it took over 5 hours for a professional weldor with professional equipment to build and grind a proper face on an anvil that had been milled too thin. (remember as a high carbon piece it needs preheat and post heat too!----make sure the weldor actually *KNOWS* about anvils! Machinists and Weldors cause more damage to anvils than probably *anything* else! If a machinist offers to mill your anvil flat for you ask if you can first straighten nails on the ways of his mill with a 4# hammer!)

May I suggest to everyone that if someone gives you an heirloom *anything*; you research first *before* doing major work on it! (I've had to tell a fellow that by wirebrushing off the rust on a japanese sword tang he had dropped the value by about $5000 once)

Evidently, the anvil the article was written about had been so hot in the fire that the surface was decarbonized.
That must have been the reason that the anvil was carburized and then subsequently heat treated. The article didn't say, but I'm betting that there was some coal close enough the the anvil in that fire to get it hot enough to cook the carbon out of the surface. I am positive however that this was the procedure used in the article. It has pictures of the entire process. Might I digress, I have some very good news (for me anyway). After wire wheeling the area where I thought there might be a face plate weld and subsequently pouring a little vinegar over that area there is a clear delineation of where there is most definitely face left. I will attach pics. The face that is left on it is approximately 3/8 of an inch thick. My initial reaction is that it is not ideal but ok. Now I have to figure out if I want to find out how much it would cost to get the thing heat treated to bring it back to a good level of hardness or try to get someone to help build up the face. Take a look at the pics and tell me what you think. If you think the face is too thin then I will go the latter route. If you feel that the face is sufficient then I will examine my options. My research has turned up a few places not too far from me that specialize in heat treating. Well anyway, take a look at these pics. Interestingly, there are numbers that have turned up on the feet of the anvil, all the way down at the bottom. On one side there is a number 3 on a foot and on the other side there is a number 7. Could this be from the casting when Peter made his anvils out of 2 pieces or do these marks have some other significance. Not really important in the grand scheme of things. I'd just like to know as much about this anvil as I can. Once again thanks for your time.

[^MG]

when you say faced, do you mean that some one with and grinder, or a mill cut away the top steel plate until it was perfectly flat?
if you take some good pictures of the anvil it may help us to know whats going on. you can also lay the anvil on its side and clean the top side (where you think the face weld line should be)and pore a little vinegar on it, after a few hours or a day the vinegar will etch a little line were the weld is, if it has not been cut off.

Thanks for the vinegar idea, it worked great. I put atatched some pictures to another reply that I made. The pictures aren't as clear as in real life, but you can kinda make out the line in the pics. As I replied to another gentleman on here, there is 3/8 of an inch of steel left on top of my anvil. That was very good news for me.

[ThomasPowers]

Most likely they *thought* it was decarburized. Most shop fires would be more likely to carburize an anvil that decarburize it---burying a piece of metal in burning charcoal for a long period of time without adding blown air is how we carburize things!

Of course checking for decarburization properly would require fancy equipment to do on site. Or access to a lab. I would guess that if they had just ground off the scale and a wee bit of the top layer it would be back to full carbon.

Need to read the article to tell if they truly knew whet that are doing or were making a good guess of it. I know that in knifemaking you can get world renowned bladesmiths who sometimes were doing voodoo metallurgy so an appeal to authority isn't always valid.

[Don A]

The anvil in the picture looks a lot better than some I've used.

I'd do a couple simple test, like maybe bounce a ball-bearing on the face, and see if there is truly anything wrong with it.

If you can find someone with a hardness tester, they could give you the whole story.

Best test would be to forge some hot iron on it. See if you're getting good rebound and make sure you're not leaving marks in the face.

An anvil can become an obsession... we've all been there, but sometimes we tend to over-think it.

My $.02,

Don

[MattBower]

I'll be interested to see if you can find a local heat treater who wants to try this.

What article are you talking about, exactly?

[Bentiron1946]

Why not just give her a try an see how it goes? If your leaving dents from forging hot iron you will know for sure that it's dead soft and needs a new face and if all goes well then happy forging. :blink:

[MattBower]

Well, he already told us it's soft:

I can tell you that the face that exists today is pretty soft regardless of what material it is. A couple slight mis-strikes with a hammer yielded a couple nice dimples.

[MLMartin]

that anvil looks Nice, glad the vinegar worked for you (Vinegar is a weak acid so will etch slowly), best of luck with the anvil!

[Tom W]

Matt,

There are two good blacksmith groups that have monthly meetings near you (Lynchburg). Search on Old Dominion Blacksmith Association and also Blacksmith Guild of Virginia. Both have websites and are affiliated with ABANA. Get to know some of the guys there and they should be able to help. I live about 50 miles from you.

My link
My link

Tom

[pkrankow]

Something crossed my mind about work hardening...I don't know if that will do the trick though.

Take a hammer and work a pattern directly over the face going side to side and front to back. Try to hit every single spot overlapping several times. Don't try swinging big, just half strength blows, and watch the rebound, it will be worse than a rubber ball!
Phil

[Dragons lair]

After re reading the first post. A missed hit put dents in it. If ya hit the anvil with the hammer it will dent.
If ya hit a piece of cold steel it will dent the anvil. If the face is too hard and ya miss. It will chip.
Ken.

[dimenickel]

i have a 190lbs pete and the face is abit soft... it will ding if you miss a strike.. ... but it works just fine for many years... you have to think... how soft is a piece of yellow hot iron... and will that dent it if worked on the anvil.... if not... then your good to go !... just move past the idea of denting the anvil... your to work on denting the yellow hot iron instead...

by the bye... my 125lbs pete is extremely hard.. break your hammer kinda hard... i think they had an easier time quenching the small anvils, but the larger ones are usually a tad softer ..


have fun
Greg

ps.. if you need sharp crisp hard edges... just get a small anvil block that fits in the hardy

[Mainely,Bob]

As an alternative to making the anvil harder,it is far easier to make your hammers softer and dress them a little more often.
Grant also posted the fact that if you dent the face of your anvil by mis-strike you can just move the displaced metal back as long as you don`t wait to do it.
Greg also brought up a good point about making top tools to overcome any problems.Top tools are a cheap and easy(compared to refacing or rehardening) way to work around just about any anvil`s shortcomings as long as there is sufficient mass/weight under them..