BP0136 - Beam Hooks, a couple Q's

[Alan DuBoff]

I'm trying to move forward to getting a small smithy setup still, and was able to make my first hook this past weekend with some local galoots at a gathering we had. A friend brough a micro-forge so we could do that. Unfortunately you only get one shot to bend the hook, as it wouldn't fit in the micro-forge after it was bent, and the tip of my scroll turned sideways as I bent it around the horn.

I found a Champion 400 blower and hope to build some type of forge, so I can make some more hooks. The intention is to hang my old tools from such hooks in a shed I built which I will use part for working wood by hand.

Anyway, I know that many folks prefer a straight pein, opposed to a cross pein, and noticed the pein on the hammer Jr. is using in the above blueprint apears to be diagonal. Is this a compromise between a straight and cross, so that you don't need to be a pretzel to work the metal out with the pein, comfortably in from of you? This can all vary depending on how one holds the work, but was just wondering in general what the diagonal pein was used for primarily.

I did search the blueprints and did see another BP from Jr. on making hammers, which showed one of those similar diagonal pein hammers. Is there a name for that type of pein?

Also, I only have a cutoff hardy, so bent my hook on the horn of my anvil. But the pin bender that Jr. is using in the Beam Hook BP looks really handy and can adjust for many various sizes. I don't see those type of gadgets in my neck of the woods, but I'll need to look harder I 'spose. Can those be purchased anywhere around Northern California does anyone know?

I'm supposed to meet a fellow galoot that has some tongs and other tools, but not sure if has anything like that, I need to ask him. He's going to help me out with a few tools so I can get going, which I can barter for.

[irnsrgn]

they are called right and left quarter peins Alan, some call them twisted face, diagonal pein, slant face and number of other names. And it is basically a hammer with a fuller on one face, used mainly for helping draw out hot metal.

The pin bender is shop made. but most of the time I just use a short piece of ordinary black pipe and a pair of scrool tongs to bend the eye.

you might consider joining this group Alan, check out their website, I have several friends who are members.

California Blacksmith Association

[Alan DuBoff]

Jr.

Ah, right and left quarter peins sound nicer than diagonal peins...

I have left messages with 2 of the places in my area that have the CBA classes, and one looks very interesting over in Fremont at the Ardenwood Historical Farm, but I'm waiting for a call back still. They have a blacksmith shop and teach CBA classes there. Another in San Jose, but that historical farm looks like quite a place.

I was also considering going to the Oktoberfest this weekend, but I have other family committments already, not to mention I'm keeping myself broke buying tools, such as the blower...

The galoot that showed me how to make the hook, did it differentely than you, and your method looks much nicer and the pins do allow for easily duplicating the shape/size. That's certainly something I would like to fab or buy.

The other question I was wondering is about the hardies. I only have 1 cutoff hardy which came with my anvil. I've seen a bending hardy on ebay, but I'm unclear what is needed to make them fit. Seems that each hardy hole could be different, and I know my hardy will only fit in the hole properly in one direction. Do folks grind those to make them fit normally?

Oh, and lastly, what type of files do folks use to clean things up, do you use a regular mill bastard file?

Thanks for all your help, I know I annoy you sometimes, as I do others. :rolleyes:

[irnsrgn]

Hardies should fit loose enough to fit easily but not so loose that they have a lot of slop which makes them unstable.


Alan, I think this is what you are talking about. It was part of a Blueprint a long time ago that seems to have disappeared somewhere.

[Glenn]

BP0123 4 Pin Bender - Jr. Strasil
Not lost at all

Look at the BP0300 Getting started in Blacksmithing, and BP0133 the now famous 55 Forge for ideas. The blueprints will show you how to make many of the tools you will need. Confidence comes when you make a tool and it works. After that first success, it is just practice.

[Alan DuBoff]

Yes, that is what I need to make for myself. That would be perfect.

I will check out the other links, I've looked through many of the blueprints already, as I have over on anvilfire with some of the info they have.

I really like the drawknife blueprint, that looks like a good project and I would love to make myself a woodworking tool. The handles are very similar to the Perfect Handles on the old tools, I just love those handles. But the blueprint pein'd in brass pins to hold on the handles. I'd like to make me a small 4" blade drawknife, those small ones are hard to find out in the wild.

I'd love to make some woodworking chisels also if possible. But I don't want to get too sidetracked yet, I need to focus on getting a forge setup and get the blower I'm getting, hooked up to it. The hooks will get me to get a little experience.

Tell me something. On the pin bender, the larger ring allows for a larger bend on the smaller pin, right?

[GobblerForge]

Alan. May I suggest that you stop and reevaluate your goals. Sounds like you are just begining and have very little experiance. This is the perfect time to stop a bad habit before it developes. What I would suggest is to consider the direction options to go. Hobbiest or full production job. If it is job and career, the disregard the rest of the post. If you are looking to do this for a hobby, and many do, then forget about the dies and jigs and tooling for now. Just for now. Start with hammer control. The blacksmith's main tools were, 1, his anvil or whatever he was using for a backing device for that particular heat, 2, fire to heat the iron, 3 his hammer. His hammer is the instrument of his will. Jigs and forms do make things faster and more uniform. But blacksmithing involves the hammer and the smith that uses it. While you learn about the history, practice with the hammer. Over time you will find a personal pleasure that comes when a finished project is all hammer work. Then as time goes on, the jigs and forms will present themself when they are needed. It's a path of discovery that most smiths have taken. But you will then know that you CAN produce the items with the hammer as well. Books are great but nothing beats a teacher and the hammer. Sad to say but I have known some smiths that have every jig in the world, but if they have to realy forge something, well they have great dificulties. So I would suggest to learn the basics and practice, practice and practice. Every hook will improve and every nail will be straiter. Soon you will be able to put down four or six hooks that are similr but are each unique. THAT is blacksmithing. Embrace it.
Gobbler

[keykeeper]

Alan, I am new also. Google the words "blacksmith association". You will be amazed at the number of quality sites set up across the world. Most of them have sections with How To's and such. Everything about getting started can be found on these sites, including lots of plans for equipment you can build yourself, such as forges, anvil stands, etc. Never stop learning from the internet, there is always something new to find.

[irnsrgn]

yes, Alan, they are called a mandrel when used in this applicartion. And like I have told you in the past you need to learn the basics, which I think you are doing by looking into classes.

[mcraigl]

Alan, a little off topic here, but where in Northern California are you located at? CBA is a great organization, and there are a fair number of good folks in the northern part of the state as well as southern oregon.

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan. May I suggest that you stop and reevaluate your goals. Sounds like you are just begining and have very little experiance. This is the perfect time to stop a bad habit before it developes. What I would suggest is to consider the direction options to go. Hobbiest or full production job.

Oh my, I might have misled you somehow, but I didn't try to...I am coming to blacksmithing as a pure hobby.

With that said, I have some wild plans as a hobbyist, and would like blacksmithing to be a means to the end. My original goal was that it would be nice to be able to forge some additions to my woodworking, which is also a hobby. Hinges, straps, hooks, stuff like that.

I'll probably never be good enough to want to be a professional smith, nor do I really want to do that. And I like your suggestion on making the hooks by hammer alone, that is what I did on the first one. This would work, and I could even use a micro-forge if I wanted to for making small hooks to hang my tools (friend gave me a firebrick in case I wanted to do so, but I don't have a propane tank, so...here I am...trying to figure out how to create a modest forge, get the basic tools, and most certainly find decent instruction.

yes, Alan, they are called a mandrel when used in this applicartion. And like I have told you in the past you need to learn the basics, which I think you are doing by looking into classes.

Yes, I am definitely looking into classes, and planning to meet with a friend towards the end of October to get together and work some iron with him. Gobbler did make a good point to not worry about the jigs, indeed.

My original attraction to this is in trying to buid myself a log home. I don't plan to do the log work, but I do plan to finish the home once the log work is up. A craftsman who has become a good friend over the past few years, Tim Bullock, will do the log work for me. As I started to research this project which has been ongoing for at least 5 years now, it was the concept of Charles McRaven that kind of got me interested in smithing. He's not popular amongst blacksmiths, he mostly used it for building log homes himself, a similar attraction I have.

In the same light, I admire someone like Weygers, who doesn't seem as popular amongst smiths either, but I admire the seat of the pants method of using smithing to create a means to the end, and how he built tools and forged other pieces for the unique home he built. And it does cross my mind as I move forward, do I want to be an un-orthodox smith like Weygers, or do I want to lay down a solid foundation as Andrews advocates/presents. I have always been one for building off a solid foundation, so the Andrews approach seems more in line with that, but Weyger's work strikes a soft spot in my heart. I don't either of their books, and that would be a good place to start possibly, but I'll wait until I find the proper classes and/or instructor to help me before buying either.

I have taken a similar approach to woodworking, and while I mostly enjoy working wood by hand, I had to be a realist and understand that it's almost impossible to dimension the amount of timbers/lumber I will need to complete such a massive project like building a home. So I will need some power tools.

I suspect I will be similar with blacksmithing, in that it will take me longer to do what I want, than it does an experienced smith, but that I'll be able to do enough and be able to produce quality that me and my family will be proud of. A perfect example of what I would forge in such a project would be strap hinges for a door, straps to add extra support to a timber, small hinges to use on a cabinet, hooks to hang things from. A bigger project would be to incorporate such hooks into an arrangement to hang pots and pans with kitchen utensils from the ceiling of the kitchen, etc...

Think of Arts & Crafts style work, such as Greene & Greene, where straps were incorporated with the woodwork, for instance. I won't get my forging as refined as that type of work, but I want the work to be mine. My kids already understand that I'm not like the average Dad of their fellow students and friends, their Dad has some wild dreams, and uses traditional ways of doing it himself rather than relying on modern industry to make all of it for him. Hopefully they'll appreciate that when I gone...

Honestly, Jr. is the quintessential galoot for what I would try to achieve, since he works wood by hand in very much the way I prefer, but in Jr.'s case he's a smith by trade. A nice convenience...I don't believe I will ever be as experienced as Jr. though, or Bill Epps, or the other folks amongst this crowd, I will be a hobbyist who lives his dream, and leaves it for his family. Sorry for ramblin', that's a bad habit of mine I 'spose...

EDIT:
mcraigl, I'm in West San Jose, but will travel to most any area around the Bay area. The Ardenwood Historical Farm in Fremont looks way cool, I hope the blacksmith classes over there works out. They are one of the CBA listed affiliations.

[ThomasPowers]

I find both McRaven and Weygers very popular amongst some smiths myself!

I agree with Gobbler though that especially starting out you should try to do as much as possible freehand to gain hammer control. Also learn to give up the idea that everything should look identical and go for the idea that you can make everything exactly like it should be for it's use so your hooks will vary in size for what you will be hanging on them.

If you want to try to make them close in size start by cutting off the same ammount of metal for a batch of hooks and then see how close you can get them freehand.

Thomas

[Alan DuBoff]

I find both McRaven and Weygers very popular amongst some smiths myself!

Interesting. I know that Weygers is popular and has been for a long time, but most of the better smiths I talk to feel he's a bit essoteric. I've met few smiths that even know about McRaven and have figured that mostly people interested in that type of mentality would. McRaven is into similar as Weygers was, in the sense of building with resources on your land, forging, stonework, and timbers...

I agree with Gobbler though that especially starting out you should try to do as much as possible freehand to gain hammer control. Also learn to give up the idea that everything should look identical and go for the idea that you can make everything exactly like it should be for it's use so your hooks will vary in size for what you will be hanging on them.

If you want to try to make them close in size start by cutting off the same ammount of metal for a batch of hooks and then see how close you can get them freehand.

I just got off the phone with Scott Thomas, he runs the smithy over at Ardenwood Historical Farm in Fremont. I believe this is just the ticket for what I need. He only charges $10/hr, and most folks learn under him for a few hours a week. He said that more than 3 hours and most folks start getting too tired.

The good thing for me is that it's only across the bridge/bay from where I work, so on the days I do go to work I could scedule time to have him instruct me. He said the first thing he does is have his students make a square rod out of a round rod, and he agreed very much with what you folks have told me, focus on hammer control first and foremost.

I think this will work out good, and give me an opportunity to use a real smithy so I can get mine setup. I'm meeting him at his smithy tomorrow afternoon around 2:00pm, and might take a slot he has on Tuesdays. He can only have one student at a time because he said he only has one forge, and it's too ackward for more than one to use it at a time.

Scott is affiliated with CBA, who is in turn affiliated with ABANA. I think this will be a good way for me to start learning how to really bang some metal. I explained to him that I do want to remain a hobbyist, and the type of work I'm interested in, to accent my woodworking as well as making some tools, and other projects to learn how to forge...(i.e., he said the square rod ends up being a fireplace poker when it's done).

[ThomasPowers]

IIRC Weygers was my first book on smithing; bought new back in the late 1970's and has a lot of black fingerprints in it as I tried to learn smithing from it.

"Country Blacksmithing" was an early addition to my collection too and I have even seen the post and beam shop McRaven mentions in it up in MO. I have his stone working book as well.

They do come from a different viewpoint and some people don't like them as it's less "professional" and more toward self sufficiency.

I'm more interested in ideas and techniques and I'll apply them as I see fit. As my smithing is a hobby (my primary one for the last 25 years) the scrounge and reuse mentality works very well for me.

Thomas

[Alan DuBoff]

IIRC Weygers was my first book on smithing; bought new back in the late 1970's and has a lot of black fingerprints in it as I tried to learn smithing from it.

"Country Blacksmithing" was an early addition to my collection too and I have even seen the post and beam shop McRaven mentions in it up in MO. I have his stone working book as well.

They do come from a different viewpoint and some people don't like them as it's less "professional" and more toward self sufficiency.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I know that most serious blacksmith's seem to reccomend either Andrew's book or Bealer's, and even Bealer seems to have a mixed following with many feeling there's bad info in the book. Seems many folks learned how to forge with Bealer's book though.

I'm been told by a friend to get Robb Gunther's videos on beginning blacksmithing. I've been told if one joins ABANA they have it in the library. I need to check to see if CBA has it in their library.

I'm more interested in ideas and techniques and I'll apply them as I see fit. As my smithing is a hobby (my primary one for the last 25 years) the scrounge and reuse mentality works very well for me.

This sounds reasonable and I like to see many views of something. Some folks feel that I analyze things too much, and that's ok, it's for me to worry about.

So far I have no books and no videos on blacksmithing, and did get an instructor today who I'll start with the middle of Oct. I'll be working with him once a week for 3 hours. He showed me exactly the things he would show me and they're in complete line with what I want to do...he had some great knives and swords, and even some spear heads he made. He also had a nice little drawknife, some great chisels with forge welded sockets on them, holdfasts, tons of hooks of all types and while I was talking with him he forged about 10 hooks using square rod, about 1/2". He put a scroll on them, twisted them, and filed the end with a farrier's rasp. First time I saw that done on hot steel, I was wondering how a rasp would work on metal.

I have to get steel toed shoes, overalls, and safety glasses. I'm confident he can give me the foundation I need to learn how to forge correctly, and the smithy was way cool, a building that was over a hundred years old, it really was the classic smithy. He had 2 forges, the main one he uses and the smaller is for his students. Both had the same type of blower I found, Champion 400 gearboxes, one with a 12" fan, the other with an 8". I don't know how big the fan is on mine, I'll find out tomorrow.

I'm pretty excited to find someone that can help me, and so close, 5 minutes away from where I work (although I work at home more than half the time). I told him I felt privlidged to find such a traditional smithy to learn in, a really nice guy, his name is Scott Thomas.

[stephangleissner]

i saw such a jig used on a visit to las cruces. i have to say that i personally wouldn't want to miss the enjoyment of the free shaping of a hook. don't 4get that any kind of mold introduces repetetiveness into the process and in a world where we are surrounded by dead automat products for me the whole point of going through the trouble of making things by hand is to create a counter point, a balance. obviously everyone has a different cutoff point about that. also a question: when is a tool still a tool, when is it a swage or a stamp. many modern smiths dont use rivet headers but beat heads freeforged. generally i find the stunning neatness and of many modern creations amazing and admittedly beyond me. at the same time they often don't warm my heart the way old examples do that were done less conscious of design.

[irnsrgn]

I have been in a blacksmith shop for a few years and oh how it has changed, progress has been a mainstay of smiths since time began. And I am sure that each and every one of them used whatever was available to them to get the job done easier and quicker. Its just a matter of survival basically, if you don't keep up with the times you get left behind. Usually when I think I have come up with an easier way I find out that some old smith years ago had already done it. I like to live by my grandfathers policy and he was a smith with a large following and reputation, he died before I was born and I never got to meet him unfortunately, but 3 of his sons continued in the trade and were influenced by his teachings. His philosophy was, if its easier and quicker it puts more food on the table for you and your family.

Jr. Strasil
3rd generations smith

[Alan DuBoff]

I have been in a blacksmith shop for a few years and oh how it has changed, progress has been a mainstay of smiths since time began. And I am sure that each and every one of them used whatever was available to them to get the job done easier and quicker. Its just a matter of survival basically, if you don't keep up with the times you get left behind.

This is unfortunately true of woodworking also as you know Jr. IMO, it doesn't mean it's bad in all cases where automation has helped.

Certainly this won't change the fact that progress has allowed us to produce more products, and yes, sometimes at the expense of a less handcrafted piece of work.

Somehow, using a jig to bend a hook is not in the same category as buying cheap cast and plated hardware from the local BORG. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of great looking stuff out there and you can find forged hardware if you look hard enough and are willing to pay someone to make it for you...or, make it yourself.

I need to think about this, I'm going to need about 3 dozen of these hooks, plus other various holders for different types of tools (chisels will need something else for instance).

Either way, I will know that I forged them, hammered them, and cleaned them up with a wire brush myself. I hope they will at least warm my heart when I look at them. The space I built which the hooks are going into certainly warm my heart on a daily basis, I use half of it for my office. The other half awaits the hooks for the tools and a workbench. It's storing wood at the moment, about 1000 bf of hard maple. While I could have done more by hand, it still warm my heart and I know I built this space myself, and I built it as a test to see if I could build my own home. I think I can, and this will now be a small shop area for hand work as well. Seems like a win-win for me.

Jr. Strasil
3rd generations smith

Hoping that your 1st generation back is doing ok. I do think about you as I start to get up to speed smithing, hope it gets better for you. Look forward to seeing you around more, both on wood and metal.

[ThomasPowers]

Irnsrgn; not quite accurate on progress. If you read the "A History of Western Technology" MIT Press you will find that the guilds of renaissance europe tried time after time to squash progress. One example the quote is of a "red metal turner" from Nurnberg who kept inventing better metal lathes and so got in very hot water with the guild such that he was forbidden to leave the city or to make and use his inventions.

Thomas