Richard Furrer Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Imagine a dremmel type multi tool, with flexi shaft, but lots bigger..... the motor hangs from the crane, or a roof joist. the working end looks kinda like a clothes iron, except in the middle it has a cup wheel grind stone that can be pushed down to touch the workpiece. It allows tiny ammounts of metal to be removed in a very controlled way. Ill get some pics next time I fire it up! John, What is the power requirement on that 5cwt hammer, hp,rpm? Got any shots of one complete in operation with motor and all. I have heard that circular pattern called "jeweling". Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hi Ric, The 5 cwt hammer needs about 30 hp, at 713 revs (8 pole less a bit of slip?). You turn the motor pully down on the existing motor to compensate for the 50hz -v- 60hz supply issue! John Newman who posts on here has a Massey 5cwt, heres a link to a photo on his website,. http://nfap.ca/hammer.html nice, if a bit red!! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 So interesting the power needed by different manufacturers machines of nerly the same weight. 500 Chambersburg uses a 25Hp. My Nazels were quite happy with 15Hp on a 500 pound machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Grant, any thoughts as to why? I would like to know the answer to that. Chambersburg used, as I recall, more gear reduction than Nazel (at least Chambersburg used jack shaft system and of course that doesn't guarantee more reduction). So even if they used a higher rpm motor than Nazel, it seems to me the torque on the crank at 2 to 3 blows per second must have been higher on the Chambersburg. Did Chambersburg run higher pressures than Nazel? Maybe to enable a top air cushion system when Nazel used ambient air for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I wonder if the 30 hp is really necessary on the 5cwt hammer for normal operation. The only time I have had the motor working hard is trying out the clamping feature. After several hours of running the hammer is hot but the motor is still cold. I wonder if the motor size is based on the clamping feature requirements. I don't use the clamping feature because you really need to have a hammer driver running the hammer to make use of it. On my hammer the oil dipstick also blows out if I use the clamping feature I would have to figure out why if I used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Depends on management. Chambersburg made the simplest thing that worked. Nazel (Beche design actually) made what they thought was the "best" design. In industry nobody cares about a few extra horses. Cheap and simple and rugged. The "cover the port with the ram as it's going and hope it stops" worked most of the time for the Chambersburg. Not always, you can really slam the head with the ram if you jump on em too quick. Seen heads get broken that way on Chambersburgs. I don't think you can get much difference in operating pressures with same size pump and ram cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 What are the relative speeds of the hammers mentioned? Do Masseys run faster than same size Nazels or Cburgs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 You're more than welcome James but it's microscopic as John N will testify. About 20ft by 20ft ....oops, using scoats furlongs widgets and bushells again 6m by 6m That said, I've managed to shoe horn 3 powerhammers, coal forge, gas forge, 30T and 15T electrohydraulic presses, chop saw, band saw, bridgeportish mill, 3 drill presses, 40T iron worker, colchester Master lathe, #6 deepthroat and #5 flypresses, 200kg and 50kg anvil, oliver hammer, slacktub, post and plenty of other vices, 10hp compressor, 250kg 3m boom swing jib cranes, oxy fuel rig, MIG TIG and plasma, 150mm and 50mm belt grinders, 14RWF bandsaw, 3hp polishing spindle, and plenty of the usual hand and air tools in. Whats more, I can still still work a 2m x 3m 250kg gate led flat ....... and get it out. Can't safetly employ anyone other than me in it; hence the long hours. ......Yep 20ft x 20ft (high ceilings are so useful) Will post some photos soon , current work in progress blocks the view! Dang, I bet you have it all on wheels so you can open the door and move it outside to work... those Colchesters are nice, aren't they? I have a 15x48 and think it's one of the best lathes ever built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Dylan, got a picture of the oliver hammer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Dang, I bet you have it all on wheels so you can open the door and move it outside to work... those Colchesters are nice, aren't they? I have a 15x48 and think it's one of the best lathes ever built. not quite working outside yet but having things on wheels (or on blocks so they can be moved by a pallet truck) is the secret to working in such a small space. As are a high ceiling and jib cranes so I can hang work in the air for storage or acess when working on it. Problem is I'm spending too much time moving gear around when i should be working. From memory the Colchester has a 6 1/2 " centre height but its a gap bed so I can swing larger stuff. I love it, beds grossly inaccurate but there's always ways round this for what I do. Eats metals. I've got a turret/capstan attachment instead of tailstock so its another of my money printing machines. Will post photos later Sam, I'll take some better photos of the oliver + other kit tomorrow. If you screw your eyes up and look carefully you should just about make it out beside the press (lovely beast of a press, will find a use for it). Pretty conventional, nothing too special about it (the oliver) I seem to remember you posting recently about building a Kinyon with two cylinders (I think). I made something along those line that may interest you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Right cool there, young master Dylan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Judson: Nazels and C-burgs seem to run very close on size vs speed. 500 pounds run at 150 BPM. Not sure about the Masseys. Bet they're very close. Seems to be a general "natural frequency of oscillation" thing for given weight/stroke/spring system (air being a spring in this case). Like to hear from John N. on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Dang, I bet you have it all on wheels so you can open the door and move it outside to work Dylan, got a picture of the oliver hammer? Welcome to my Tardis Guess I'm hijacking this thread with these pictures. Sam, you'll find a better view of the treadle somewhere. Hwool. Colchester is pretty much fixed down .... 13 x 24" all in 20' x 20' !!! dammit, this forums finally got me using your wierd obscure medieval units Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 OUR MEASURE????? It's called ENGLISH measure, OK "Imperial" I guess. Yeah, but ya still go to the lumber yard and ask for a two by four, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 OUR MEASURE????? It's called ENGLISH measure, OK "Imperial" I guess. Yeah, but ya still go to the lumber yard and ask for a two by four, right? almost! we go to the timber merchant and ask for a 2 by 4 I'm that of that generation that was pretty much bought up with both. Tend to estimate in ' and "s, engineer in mm. Infinitely prefer the metric sytems. It rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Nice shop. We have an expression here in the U.S. like 10Lbs of @#$* in a 5Lb Bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Nice shop. We have an expression here in the U.S. like 10Lbs of @#$* in a 5Lb Bag. how about 5.545kg of honey in 2.273 kg bag ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Inner Peace I am passing this on to you because it definitely worked for me today, and we all could probably use more calm in our lives! Some doctor on the TV this morning said that the way to achieve inner peace is to finish all the things you have started. So I looked around my house to see things I'd started and hadn't finished and, before going to work this morning, I finished off a bottle of Merlot, a bottle of shhhardonay, a bodle of Baileys, abutle of vocka, a pockage of Pringlies, the res of the Chesescke a n a box a chocolets. Yu haf no idr ow frigin gud I fel. Pleas sen dis orn to anyy yu fee ar in ned ov inr pece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Inner Peace I am passing this on to you because it definitely worked for me today, and we all could probably use more calm in our lives! Some doctor on the TV this morning said that the way to achieve inner peace is to finish all the things you have started. So I looked around my house to see things I'd started and hadn't finished and, before going to work this morning, I finished off a bottle of Merlot, a bottle of shhhardonay, a bodle of Baileys, abutle of vocka, a pockage of Pringlies, the res of the Chesescke a n a box a chocolets. Yu haf no idr ow frigin gud I fel. Pleas sen dis orn to anyy yu fee ar in ned ov inr pece some advice is just good old fashioned advice and well worth listening to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Welcome to my Tardis Guess I'm hijacking this thread with these pictures. Sam, you'll find a better view of the treadle somewhere. Hwool. Colchester is pretty much fixed down .... 13 x 24" all in 20' x 20' !!! dammit, this forums finally got me using your wierd obscure medieval units Nice shop (ever heard the term "sardine can"?)...Just don't ever gain any weight or you'll have to backout to turn around. Your Colchester is newer vintage than mine (1962); I definitely like the turret. I had a LeBlond set up like that once but it was a borrowed machine and the owner eventually wanted it returned. It also had a lever cross-slide that held 2 or 4 tools so you could plunge or turn from the sides then had the turret to work from the end. Was a good low to medium volume production tool, especially when set up with a collet chuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I like your shop David, where do you change your mind? So many under estimate how much room is above us, up and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I like your shop David, where do you change your mind? So many under estimate how much room is above us, up and out. Nice work Michael Wheels on the bench noted! I've got a thing about height and jib cranes. I'm humming and ha-ing about getting a bigger workshop (gonna be a real b***ache moving all my kit). I've already bought a 500kg/3m 360 degree swing jib for it (stored flat at my home garage) Gonna fit out the new workshop around the crane (then a bigger hammer!) It's 3.5m to the underside of the boom but gonna cast a block of concrete for the counterweight (that sits ON the floor) 1.2mx 1.2m x 1m high to lift the the crane upto 4.5m. You just can't have too much head height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Your Colchester is newer vintage than mine (1962); I definitely like the turret. I had a LeBlond set up like that once but it was a borrowed machine and the owner eventually wanted it returned. It also had a lever cross-slide that held 2 or 4 tools so you could plunge or turn from the sides then had the turret to work from the end. Was a good low to medium volume production tool, especially when set up with a collet chuck. 1973 I think, older versions are wonderfull but they've got a round headstock, can't leave even a single spanner on them. turrets rock! Even just a lever operated tailstock (without the quickchange tooling) is worth its weight in gold Over here we have things called Ward 3Bs (I think). Ancient old things with allsorts of production oriented slides, collets, quick changemulti tool holders etc. Seem to go for a pittance on ebay. Might get one when I upgrade to a dolls house, when the right job comes along it'll pay for itself in hours. If not, I've got a new toy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 OUR MEASURE????? It's called ENGLISH measure, OK "Imperial" I guess. Yeah, but ya still go to the lumber yard and ask for a two by four, right? went to the timber merchants today and picked up some 3 be 2. Measured it (because thats the sorta person I am) It's 70 by 43mm. Have I been screwed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Grant, with respect to Chambersburg air cushioning,it seems to me that "cover the port with the piston and hope it stops" requires a positive gauge air pressure on top of the piston in order that there is enough air to be compressed and to serve as the cushion. Absent that air, the piston could crash into the head. Tom Clark's hammer has that type of cushion. The same pressure differential above and below the piston will make the reciprocation the same across hammer designs, but (maybe) keeping enough air on top of the piston is why the higher horsepower is needed. Just some half-baked speculation........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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