Mark Wargo New2bs Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Just a curious question that I've been pondering. What would be the working properties of iron created as the result of a thermite reaction? The only significant byproducts of the reaction should be elemental iron and aluminum oxide. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Wouldn't all products be vapor? unless you are using thermite to melt metal. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I have made and forged thermite iron. If you only use ore ad Al-powder the iron will be fairly pure Fe, no carbon at all. Grainsize is HUGE and there will be lots of cracks wich makes it a bit tricky to forge in the begining . alloying elements can be added in the process to make instant steel, but it is quite hard to control exact composition of the steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatamax Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I have made and forged thermite iron. If you only use ore ad Al-powder the iron will be fairly pure Fe, no carbon at all. Grainsize is HUGE and there will be lots of cracks wich makes it a bit tricky to forge in the begining . alloying elements can be added in the process to make instant steel, but it is quite hard to control exact composition of the steel. Ever since I read about thermite i've wondered wether it could be used to cut steel plate from stencils. Having made and used thermite do you think it would work or is the reaction too uncontrolled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wargo New2bs Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Phil, the products will be liquid. Since the grain size will be huge, will normalizing cycles reduce that fairly well or will you need to work it a good bit as well. Also, the AL should float on top of the liquid FE. What process did you use to separate those? Just mechanically separate them? My thought was to recycle all the scale and ground metal I generate by rusting it then processing it. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 goofing with thermit is reaallly dangerous. It can kill you, dead. Please stick to reading about it, and don't mess around. If you need some steel, buy some at the steel yard. Really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wargo New2bs Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share Posted January 24, 2010 IForgeIron does no warrant any of the information for any reason including fitness of purpose. Research and understand the dangers of each action before you start, and protect yourself and others. If you get hurt, you have only yourself to blame. The use of any electronic or printed information is solely at the users risk. Thanks Mike. I appreciate the concern. I mainly posted in this area as a thought exercise with full awareness of the above disclaimer. I was curious if anyone had experience with the resulting metal. While I have no short to medium term plans, I might one day give it a go. I will of course take elaborate safety precautions. In the mean time, as you say, I'll go to the steel yard or scarp yard. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 I have found big chunks of thermit along the railroad tracks it has lots of iron in it for sure real porous big grain structure I have never done any thing with it I just thought it looked cool so I brought it home. This is an extremely volatile reaction they are welding rail road tracks together (lots of heat) wander the tracks and you may find some just stay clear of oncomming trains (another disclaimer) maybe I will just watch football today much safer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I have made and forged thermite iron. If you only use ore ad Al-powder the iron will be fairly pure Fe, no carbon at all. Grainsize is HUGE and there will be lots of cracks wich makes it a bit tricky to forge in the begining . alloying elements can be added in the process to make instant steel, but it is quite hard to control exact composition of the steel.Out of curiosity, are there any filberts near your anvil? (Are you who I think you are?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Over at swordforum we had a member that was doing a lot of really cool alloying using the thermite reaction for heat; till he posted his "last project" as it appears he is going blind due to IR damage to his eyes; the goggles he was using were not enough it seems. I do not believe normalizing of pure iron works to refine grain size; it was the more modern steels that have alloying that allows you to refine grain sizes by normalizing. (Old steels had much more problem with grain growth than modern alloys!) Remember that dissolving can take place even if you would think it would just float. I don't know the AlO-Fe system to know how much an issue that could be. I do know that Al was added to steel to kill it during refining. Railroads use very engineered thermite processes to weld rail together with material of a good composition---2 years ago they demonstrated this at Quad-State. Some people have tried forging sprues from thermite rail welding and have gotten interesting patterns that way. Some people report being able to harden it and so not being able to harden it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wargo New2bs Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Thanks for the further information Thomas. I believe one reason thermite is used for welding is because the aluminium tends to float on top so as not to weaken the weld. Of course, as you point out that is with well planned protocols and experienced folks. Would it be IR or UV wavelenths that cause the eye damage? hrmmm, if normalizng cycles won't refine grain structures was it just working the metal that allowed it to be refined and used for tools? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 IR---Smiths have a problem with eye doctors that are used to arc welders that do UV damage not realizing that smiths tend to have IR issues like glass blowers do. Lots of stuff out there for UV protection lots less worry about IR. I had a good friend who was an ophthalmologist and ophthalmological surgeon who sat me down and gave me a Looooong Talk when he found out I did smithing. Also used to give me the most through exams I have ever had on an annual basis. (Nowadays being diabetic I get a full exam every year anyway and make sure to mention IR to the Dr---no problems either way so far!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 So Mr. Powers, Care to share with the rest of us what the good Doc recommended for IR eye protection? I take it the lenses used by welders are completely useless against IR damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wargo New2bs Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 I would be interested in knowing about the eye protection as well. I'm assuming that taking precautions to avoid looking into the fire as much as possible would be a good first step. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 What I understand is that gold flashed Didymium do a fairly good job; but you have to re-calibrate your heat judgment as they skew the colours a bit. Setting things up so you are not always looking into your gas forge helps a lot too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topsawn Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Thomas, following this thread to learn a little more about IR protection for my eyes. Guess I'm one of those that ends up staring into the fire, hard habit to break when you burn as much metal as I do. Searched on line for the Gold Flashed Didymium that you mentioned. No leads. But did find welding lens in Ir Green 2.0,Green 3.0, Green 5.0 and IR Colbalt. Was wondering if maybe the same end results from these products. Any clues would help. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 I think Thomas is talking about the gold welding filter plates.They cost a little more but apparently they`re well worth it.I have afew and started using them about the same time I started with "cheater" lenses(magnifying lens,for when your eyes start to give out).The gold lenses give you a better view of the weld puddle IME.I can see where they`d take some getting used to for forging as they make the arc look red instead of green.I expect they really would throw the color of hot steel off by a lot. The cobalt lenses were what we used to use for torch welding aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 IIRC, Dr. Hrisoulas mentioned appropriate eyewear in the video in which he made a ladder pattern welded dagger. If I can find the video, I will watch it and post what he says. I haven't seen him post of the site for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topsawn Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Good info Thank you The Dr. Hrisoulas Video would be a big help if you can find it. Really worried about the negative effects of my "bad forging habits". Old dogs don't take to new tricks. Why is it that everything that I like to do will make you go blind? Thanks for your help. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Well, I looked for the videos tonight and it seems I left them at my in-laws when we moved. Unfortunately, they live about 8 hours away and I won't be seeing them for a few months. Perhaps if you sent a pm to Dr. Hrisoulas, he can enlighten you. His member name is JPH. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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