Forge Type?

[Eric01]

As a starting smith, one of my first arguments is which type of forge to build? I read many articles talking about the pros and cons of each, and I find that these are the main ones I focus on. Solid forges are cheap to construct, and from what I have seen a bit more simple. The thing that is setting me back on them is the health risk involved in breathing in coal smoke. Gas forges on the other hand seem to cost quite a bit to construct because of the need for a burner. Considering the fact I have no junk lying around, I do not really have anything I can build from what I have here. Gas forges on the other hand have no health risks really in proper ventilation (I will be smithing outside) unless it blows up on me . So I am still arguing which one to build. If any of you guys could help me make a decision, or give me more information on either it would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the wall of text :(

[Iron Clad]

I use both kinds. My shop is well ventilated however. I never have worried about coal smoke. Perhaps I should!

[Rob Browne]

Just don't breath the coal smoke. Problem solved.

I use a coal forge only because coal is very cheap here and I have only ever really been exposed to solid fuel forges. However, I have used a friends gasser and its really handi to be able to go in and just turn it on. After saying that its MUCH noiser and expensive to run.

I think both have a place in any serious setup but then I'm not serious, I only forge for fun so one forge does it all.

[AndrewOC]

Eric, solid fuel forges definately are easier to build; a tray with an air pipe into it will get you started. In addtion to the other guys wise ventilation advice is the experiance of a fellow smith i know.
He took the opportunity of borrowing the local fire brigades gas detector, and measured hazardous levels of CO2 especially during the first 15min of starting up. Now he fastidiously shutters up the forge after lighting it and works in the other end of the shop while the fire grows and the smoke clears. His is a purely coke forge, electric blower.

Have fun
AndrewOC

[David Einhorn]

A properly managed coal fire should not produce much smoke, and what smoke is produced should be drawn up a properly constructed chimney. Pull the coal in gradually from the sides allowing it to gradually coke so that by the time it reaches the center, the volatiles have burned off. The coking process is managed by proper application of water.

[darksaber]

If the coal smoke worries you try using another type of solid fuel, such as lump charcoal (not briquettes), or coke. The lump charcoal is what some people use for grilling and doesn't smoke hardly at all, or that has been my experience at least.

[MarkC]

man just pick up a forge on ebay and be done with it. then you can get to hammering instead of taking a month (or more) to build your forge. you have your whole life to build a forge just the way you like it.

Blacksmith: Poor Boy Propane Gas Forge - Tank Ready - eBay (item 380151855479 end time Nov-21-09 03:48:12 PST)

[J W Bennett]

There are plenty of plans and explanations of both gas and coal forges on this site and others. I have built and use both types in my shop. I use gas for production work and coal for forge welding and single projects. I am looking at building another gasser for damascus this winter. I believe you would be well served to build both. Coal is probably the quickest by far to throw together but consider a gasser project for winter also.

John

[Eric01]

Mark, I would be tempted to go out and just buy a premade gasser but that leaves me with about no money left over for an anvil.

[ThomasPowers]

A coal forge has no hazards when "Properly Ventilated" *and* warns you that something is amiss if otherwise by the smoke.

A propane forge has no warning if something is amiss until you get the CO headaches...

To build a solid fuel forge you will need a handful of plumbing parts to do the air handling/ashdump.
To build a gas forge you will need a handful of smaller and cheaper plumbing parts to build a burner. Can you explain your reasoning again?

Making a burner is a bit more fussy than making a solid fuel air system I will admit.

Can you get good smithing coal where you are at? I have to drive a couple of hours to get OK coal but can buy propane at 9 pm on a Sunday night in our small town.

With a coal forge you have to learn both fire management and forging at the same time. Propane lets you concentrate on juts the smithing part.

However a big component of the decision is what you plan to do---which you didn't mention. Sort of like asking us which vehicle you should buy without telling us if you will be hauling tons of gravel or commuting 3 hours every day. Solid fuel forges are better general forges as you can usually scale up or down on size of work piece/size of fire. Gas forges are more limited to what fits in them and so if you are doing different sized work you need different forges. (ranging from a single firebrick forge to one you can drive your truck into).

[Eric01]

My plan right now is to forge a collection of tools I can use. After that I have been looking and forging knifes.

Propane is very readily available in my area. I do not yet know of a place where I can buy coal.

I guess at this point I am leaning towards a propane gasser because the burner does not look all that complicated to construct. I am still going to need a blower right? I think I read somewhere you still need a blower unless you build an atmospheric burner.

The only things I have around right now to use as a shell for it would be a coffee can, and maybe some old buckets. The only issue is that a coffee can forge does not have the size required for me to forge tools right?

Edited November 6, 2009 by Eric01

[MarkC]

do you have a welder handy? have you thought of building a rectangular propane forge body out of relatively inexpensive plate steel? and if you go with an atmopspheric forge the burner is a cinch

[MarkC]

have you seen this?

Plans to build a simple gas forge

[Eric01]

have you seen this?

Plans to build a simple gas forge

Thank you so much for that link Mark! That is just what i needed :D

[pkrankow]

If you lack welding capabilities, you can use steel pop rivets. They work reasonably well.
Phil

[Eric01]

So once I assemble my burner and burner holder, what kind of propane accessories will I need to connect the tank to the burner and monitor the PSI?

I also have to say thanks a lot for the help guys. I should be able to go out this weekend and get the paint bucket, and some parts for assembling the legs, burner, and burner holder. I will make a thread with the build progress once I get started some time.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Pieh tools is in arizona you can get coal there they also have classes. Both forges have there uses and both are good. I have one of each. good ventalation is important with each. Have you saught out your local blacksmithing group good source of info and tools.

[Eric01]

Pieh tools is in arizona you can get coal there they also have classes. Both forges have there uses and both are good. I have one of each. good ventalation is important with each. Have you saught out your local blacksmithing group good source of info and tools.

Wow I can't believe I forgot about Pieh .

Been by there many times when I go up to go shooting. The problem is I can't drive yet (15), and my parents work excessively so convincing them to drive me up for a few bags of coal might not go over well considering my mom thinks this is all nuts :confused:

But I will keep them in mind. I am still not set on the gas idea because setting up a solid fuel one would be so much easier.

[ThomasPowers]

To get from the propane tank to the burner you will need a high pressure propane regulator---a typical gas grill regulator will not work and a section of fuel hose rated for propane with fittings on both ends. I get both these things at a local propane company.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Eric01 once you make her some stuff that will change

[Eric01]

Eric01 once you make her some stuff that will change

Lets hope :)

[MarkC]

hey man, you're 15 years old and not a child. but, google "propane" and "LPG" and read everything about the gasses that you can. propane can kill you dead. it's heavier than air, seeks ignition sources, and a lot of other bad stuff. if a line blows or melts you need to shut the gas off at the source before or immediately after you extinguish the blowtorching hose. just read up. safety is priority one at all times. extinguishers, hoses, and water buckets at all times without exception. using safety equipment is the mark of a professional. dismissing safety to look tough is the mark of a pure idiot.

[pkrankow]

Check out
Zoeller Forge Home Page Gas Forge parts, Atmospheric Burners, and Blacksmithing
Forge and Burner Design Page #1

They have lots of good information as starting place. If you need to build a gas forge from all new parts from big box type places Zoeller is slightly less expensive. If you are a good scrounger you can network and get parts for less. There are other burner designs out there too.

Solid fuel can be done with a hole in the dirt and a blower of some type, but your parents may like that less.

Last, since your are below 18 you are best having permission for each stage of this process (both parents is best, and in writing if possible especially if you are working under someone else's supervision), and remember to work in a flame resistant environment.

Phil

[Eric01]

Yea I know propane can be pretty dangerous but I guess everything has its own risks. I am thinking I am going to build a solid fuel one, cheaper to operate and its not a big headache with building the burner, getting a propane regulator. The problem I have is my parents do not keep any junk around, and nobody I know does. The big trash day is gone it comes once a year. So finding the stuff to build one which is a headache. The fact that my parents are not to keen on my interests further complicates the fact that coal is about a 1:30 drive from here, and knowing how much they work and such it would not be a viable option. Making charcoal is a whole other headache, unless I could use the regular grilling charcoal but from what I have read it tends not to work so well.

Been really wanting to do this for a long time, but getting everything together is just a headache lol . Securing an anvil is another thing, but with only $230 in my pocket I am not sure how.

Edit: Sorry if I sound like I am just complaining, just a bit stressed from some other things that are going on right now. I appreciate everyone being so patient and helpful with this.

[OddDuck]

Don't worry too much about things Eric, at your age and in this era instant gratification is expected, and things that take time are frustrating. That being said, A: good for you trying to find a positive outlet for your creative energies instead of getting into trouble, and B: patience and planning will get you a lot further with your folks. Be patient with them, if they are working a lot they probably have stress of their own that makes it hard for them to accept something that is kind of out of left field for someone your age. Be calm and rational with them when you discuss it, make sure they understand that this is not a passing fad, and that you will gain valuable skills from practicing it.
Read, use some of your budget to purchase books (or more frugally, get them from your local library). The more knowledgeable you are about the subject the more you can answer their inevitable questions in an intelligent way. Lindsay's Technical Books is a good source for inexpensive books about forge work (and a lot of other neat stuff). See if there are classes nearby and put your mony into that, let someone else supply the tools while you learn.
Plan your forge to fit inside a couple of large plastic totes, use one for tools and supplies, and use the other for stock and other "junk". Don't get hung up on what you don't have, and maximize the utility of what you can get. If cavemen could figure it out using rocks, you can smith with a chunk of rail and a claw hammer. And make sure you leave your work area cleaner than you found it, nothing will turn your folks against the idea like tripping over a mess every time they go out into the backyard.
Start practicing before you ever get your first real tools. Go to Walmart and buy some non-hardening clay and start practicing blacksmithing techniques with that. Supposedly it behaves exactly like hot metal, and you won't get burned, or set the patio on fire. Practice with a book on hand, so your folks will see you actually applying the knowlege, if they have a minute, let them try too and teach them a few things. This will set your budget back all of five bux for the clay. Get creative on the hammer and other instruments of destruction. Make replicas out of wood for the clay practice, use dowels to make chisels, etc. Once you can make something that is recognizable, show your folks. Start with scrolls and leaves instead of a katana, they will be more impressed with decorative objects than sharp pointy ones, and less worried over your intentions.
Again, Planning and PATIENCE are going to be your friends, whining and frustration won't. Good luck, and have fun.