Sam Salvati Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Now, please don't give me the "just another kid with some BS BS urban legend" speil, I truly want to know if this has been tried or what, and if so if it worked. Now to the question, we all know there are those diamond dust sharpeners, and I was wondering: If you take a flat bar of steel 12 inches long by 2 inches wide and 3/8ths of an inch thick, like a simple high carbon steel like 1050, or 1075, maybe even a high one like 1095, and fold it over so it is like a peice of angle iron, heat it up to forge welding temp and sprinkle diamond dust all over it, then heat it up again and forge weld it over, then fold again and add mopre diamond dust, and do that like 3-4-5 times, then form that into a blade, would it show neat surface effects, have better edge holding ability/cutting ability? I know that one thing that contributes to edge cutting ability is carbon crystals on the surface of the edge(or is that not true?), so maybe some diamond crystals might show up there too? If anything it might make the blade sparkle? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I would imagine that diamond dust in the size of at least 1/4 carat each in the form of ear rings presented to your favorite lady would get you more desirable results than sprinkling it as power on a piece of hot iron. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Uh, it would probably just give you a cruddy weld. More or less anything besides the iron and the alloys in the iron are enemies of clean welds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Fredeen Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I am going with Tyler on this. I dont think you would be able to weld the diamond dust into the steel. I believe that diamonds form under alot more heat and pressure than a forge could produce, and at those temps, the steel would be molten. So due to that I doubt you could get the diamonds to contribute positivitly to any form of cohesion in a forge weld, they would most likley interfer as a contaminant. As for the edge cutting ability, I have not personally heard of carbon crystals on the edge resluting in a superior cut. The edges of a blade are ground in, so therefore, any carbon crystals which could have formed durring the forging process (which I dont think occurs either, just carbon and iron oxides in the form of fire scale not pure carbon crystals) would be ground away and removed. The cutting ability of an edge lies in its shape, angle, and steel hardness primarily, and some on the grain orientation of the steel. A harder steel (with more carbon) will hold its shape much better, allowing it to be ground much thinner and more precise, creating a great cutting edge. The thinner the angle the edge is ground at will also result in a sharper edge. And finally in some of the forging process it is possible to cause the grain of the steel to become orientierd somewhat perpendicularly to the edge, which creates sort of micro-serrations which makes a better cutting blade. But I dont think carbon crystals on the edge have anything to do with it. Now if you did want to make a blade with diamonds in it, I suppose you could try to place diamonds in a mold, and cast a steel blade, causing the molten steel to flow around the diamonds and the result would be a cast blade with imbeded diamonds, but I dont know how that would work exactly. Tar Alderion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 TAR- I took the post out it was not meant to be abrasive. Good luck chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bipolarandy Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Sandpile: what was wrong with tar's post, i thought it was very concise and well researched. Sam: even if you did manage to do this, 1, where would you get diamond dust? 2, how would you sharpen the blade? another piece of steel with diamond's in it? -Andrei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Fredeen Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Yes, please tell me what you think is wrong with my post, because I have no idea what you are refering to. I have researched extensivly on heat-treating and metallurgy, and I do not state "concieved opinions," I speak from the factual information which I have learned from. And just in case you misinterpreted what I said, I will provide clarification. The statement which I made was refering to A.M.'s comment "I know that one thing that contributes to edge cutting ability is carbon crystals on the surface of the edge(or is that not true?)." Now in A.M.'s comment, the part about carbon crystals on the surface of the edge is what I was primarily adressing, not carbon content in the crystaline structure of the steel. In all of the blades I have made (and I have made many) I have never found pure carbon crystals on the surface of the steel after heat treating and grinding an edge. This is not saying that greater carbon content within the steel composition at the edge will not increase the edge holding ability of steel, it is saying that "carbon crystals" do not form on the "surface of an edge". The carbon crystals instead form within the crystaline structure of the steel itself and are part of the grain structure of the steel itself, not as a seperate part on top. Durring the heat treating process the entire crystaline structure of the steal is changed when rapidly cooling from the austenite state to that of martensite. The more rapid cooling results in a more complex crystaline structure (martensite) and a harder steel and the more carbon present in the steel, the harder the steel may become. This being said, I stand by what I said that carbon crystals on the surface of an edge do not aid in cutting ability (because I have yet to see any blade with carbon crystals actually on the edge itself), rather the carbon content and crystaline structure of the steel at the edge provide the hardness requried for a superior edge. With the harder steel one can then shape the proper edge to the proper angles to provide a quality cutting edge, as well as have a thinner edge with out deformation due to softness. I will also say that I find your comment to be frankly insulting and based on assumptions about what you think I know and what you think I dont, especially when you yourself have not even stated what portion of my post was incorrect. The more prudent thing to do would have been to point out the specific errors in my post, then suggest a correction and not state that I spoke out of "concieved opinion." As if I just made the whole dang thing up off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me miller Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 It seems like somewhere in the distant past there was an article about Daryl Mier (sp) working on some project like that. He did basically a center core with industrial diamonds to see what would happen. Nothing ever came of the end resulsts or not that I ever saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 TAR-- It has always been my thoughts that in Blades the only thing that will stay sharp and hold an edge are the carbon crystals in the steel. The finer the grain the better the carbon is able to stay sharp. To say there is no carbon in the edge of a blade is what I found to be off stream. Explain to me how you are going to keep an instrument sharp if there is no carbon in the edge. If I insulted you I apoligize. I did not intend to insult but had a hardtime understanding where you got your info on no carbon in an edge. Impossible to keep an edge without carbon. I am not saying there are separate carbon crystals. The carbon is desolved and distributed throughout the steel, edge and all. It is in every part of the hardend blade. I still think the rest of your post was good. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 What!? Well Tar, more specifically I meant by carbon crystals, that when an edge is sharpened, no matter how fine you take it down, there (on a microscopic veiw of the edge) will always be the rough bits. I thought I read somewhere that the little saw tooth looking jagged bits wer carbon crystals protruding from the steel/iron, as steel is an alloy of Iron and Carbon. Like I said though, I am not sure if that is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Fredeen Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Chuck, I do not ever recall saying that there was no carbon in the edge, I just ment to say that there is no carbon crystals which form "on" the edge (as in on top of, as a separate part, which is what AM's wording sounded like). That is the only thing I was attempting to get at. As for the rest and what you have said, that is completly correct. The edge holding ability of the steel lies completly on carbon content within the crystaline structure. Pure iron may be brought to an edge, but it lacks the ridigity to stay sharp, but with the addition of carbon into the steel, the hard carbon crystals provide the toughness for a maintainable edge. I am with you completly on that. Same with the grain structure, the smaller the better. That is what the heat hardening does, it cools very quickly causing smaller grain, if it cooled slowly you would get larger grain. The same concept applys to all minerals. I did not mean to convey anything else, so if it came off that way, my mistake and apologies there. Hope this clears up everything I suppose it is difficult to correspond ones exact meaning in a post sometimes, therefore resulting in miscommunication. No need to apologize. I guess I just felt a bit irritated because your post seemed to portray a lack of knoweledge on my behalf, where that is not the case. No one likes to be misrepresented I suppose. But hey no big deal. A.M. you are speaking of the "micro serrations" which I slightly mentioned earlier. If an edge is completly smooth, it will not cut (maybe it would with a heck of a lot of pressure, but you sure wouldnt call it sharp). The micro serrations act kind of like a saw, but on a much finer scale. I however, believe that most of the micro serrations are caused by the grit used within grinding, not necessarly just carbon "crystal" protrusions since the carbon is failry well bonded on a molecular level with the iron so as not to form pur carbon deposites (but there would be some carbon crystals (on a microscopit level) as a part of the entire edge which would be exposed, along with the iron.) The grinding belt, stone, or whatever you use to sharpen is composed of a bunch of grains of a substance (ex. aluminum oxide for most standard belts). These scratch and remove material by gouging into the steel surface, and at the edge the small gouges come together and leave the serration stlyed edge. And the carbon crystals would also tend to be removed at a slower rate than the iron itself being harder, resulting in the "protrusions" which could be what your source was getting at. So I would say that the serrations are not necessarly "caused" by the carbon crystals, but rather in the sharpening process itself, which forms the entire steel composition that way. Now somewhere I read something that spoke about being able to orientier the grain structure of the steel in order to improve the existance of the micro serrations. Which I think that tends to occur naturally in the forging process anyways as you hammer in the beveling. Not entirly sure about any special technique to do it though. It might not have any basis either, could be one of those myths, but it does seem plausable. Tar Alderion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Ok cool. I thought after reading that article(I wish I could find it) that due to carbon being the hardest material on earth, that on a microscopic level the carbon crystals would be less worn away by a grinder or stone, so that they would kind of stick out. But back to the semi original part of the question, if the diamond dust was very fine, I mean like FINE, and added slightly here and there each weld, maybe it would not be detrimental, or atleast make a cool looking blade. I personally think that open seams and stuff look kinda neat, as long as they are not all over, specifically I am talking about the little cable damascus knife I made. the little open seams at the base of the little blade kind of spiral up and then close, going up the blade towards the tip, which looks so cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Fredeen Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 That is basically what I said, about the micro serrations, you got the idea. Now if you took the diamond dust and just welded around it (kind of making pockets or deoposites withing the structure of the blade) You might be able to get it to work. Hopefully the powder would bond with itself and not just pour out of the openings. The only other problem I could see with the diamond core type of idea (which is like what Me Miller mentioned Daryl Mier attempting) is that if you could get it to work, the blade might be extremly brittle and break on you. There is a lot of misunderstanding that occurs with diamond. Diamond is the hardest substance on earth, but that does not mean that it is unbreakable. It just means that the only thing which can scratch or cut a diamond is diamond itself. But if you were to take a hammer and smack a diamond with it, it would break and crush. So thats why I am thinking if you were able to get a diamond core done, being long and thin for the blade, it would probably fracture and break apart with stress. As for open welds, the main problem with open welds is they can compromise the structure and strenght of the blade. You might be able to get by with a couple on the surface and what not, but if there are many and they go completly through, the blade could break especially if the other welds are not sound, or end up pulling apart. Oh, and the bigest problem with something like this is the extensive cost. The moment you start pulling diamonds into the picture, industiral or not, you are talking some $$. And if it didnt work, all the $$ and work put into it would be wasted. Tar Alderion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 First of all Diamonds will be absorbed into hot steel as plain old carbon---look up why diamonds are not generally used for lathe tooling! So basically you get the same results spinkling a bit of graphite in betwixt welds. I had a friend who added graphite powder to his flux for just this reason...Tar if you know 1/10 as much as you claim you would know this! Ask at any good machinist forum. Also diamonds will burn---convert to other forms. They are *very* stable under the heat and pressure they form at but at STP they are only metastable. Thirdly I believe that you refer not to carbon crystals on the edge but metal carbides, a very different thing indeed and their presence greatly improves wear resistance on an edge. Historically it was a "selling point" type of claim; sure it was done but graphite would have worked as well. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Waugh Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Thomas, Thank you for injecting a bit of actual metallurgy into this discussion. Facts are always a better foundation for learning than fantasy and mysticism. Perhaps you could provide a bit more information on the formation/uses of carbides in steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Perhaps you could read the first opening thread? If you stay with all the rules and stuff and never try something that according to the "rules" won't work, you'll never learn anything. Good to know though Thom, graphite sounds alot cheaper. I also wonder about tungsten grindings, as they are metal already, would they not just bond into the folds of the steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I don't know about wolfram. I do know that carbon has a very fast diffusion rate in steel but most other elements do not---why we can get nice layers in PW steel. But what will dissolve what in general I don't know---save that molten Al will dissolve Cu to an amazing ammount! (friend likes to make "Al bronze") I remember the diamond dust from discussions with a MatSci prof I had in college *and* the many postings on various metalworking forums about not using diamond tools on steel . As to "following the rules" how about "doing your homework"? (ie find out what has been done before) That particular idea (diamond dust) has been done thousands of times and talked about even more. Repeating experiments with no changes is NOT doing anything new it's just wasting time you *could* be doing something new. Using the web to let other folks do your homework will work to a point; but you save other people a lot of hassle if you do some basic checking first. Google can be your friend though much of what you find is rather bogus. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 The book "The Art of Blacksmithing" touches on this subject in the weapon making chapter. No good news, as I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Fredeen Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 There is no need to be contemptuous Thomas. You may have more knoweledge and experiance than me in this matter, but that is no reason to ridicule and post jabs like, "Tar if you know 1/10 as much as you claim you would know this!" Its not necessary or appropriate for that matter. To begin, I havent "claimed" anything, thats being a bit assumptious. I have never said I know everything, I know a decent working amount about a lot of things, but not even close to the amount of information out there, it would take many many lifetimes to learn it all if you even could. No one knows everything about a subject. like in this situation, I know that iron will absorb carbon (like with things like graphite, and throwing in charcoal when case hardening) , and I know that diamonds are formed from carbon under extreme pressure and heat, but I didnt know if the stability of diamonds would break down enough in forging heat to allow carbon absorbtion into the steel. I havent worked with diamonds, cant afford to, so I havent researched using them, plus most of what is out there about diamonds and blades is myth and fantasy. So, I speculated and I presented it as speculation, not fact. Thats no reason to throw in comments like that. This place is here for the puropse of sharing and learning, so if someone is wrong about something, I dont think they should be attacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Gonna have to side with Tar on that one. Information is all we're seeking here. I'm not sure I'm going to be comfortable sharing my knowlege if I fear that someone is going to call me and idiot for being wrong. I think I can speak for others, in that if I am wrong, I want to be told, but I don't want my nose rubbed in it for making a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Tar, I thought you had mentioned a much richer experience with maching than I had---my machine tools are a drillpress and a file. My father was EE/ham radio so no family background to fall back on. If I have got you confused with somebody else then I do apologize. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Fredeen Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I can say that I have never done any machining, nor claimed to have done so. I have never worked a lathe or mill, and I dont even know where to start (I could figure out how to turn it on and move some stuff, but thats all). Someday, when I have a bit more money I might make an effort to learn and obtain equipment, but not yet. The most I have done is about what you have said, a drill press, some files, and a bit of grinding, and that is about where my knoweledge about machining stops. You are definatly thinking of someone else besides me. So, you are forgiven, I just hope things like this dont happen in the future, between anyone here. I know how irritating and annoying an arrogant person can be, who claims to be an expert on something, but really knows nothing. But even then, I dont think the purpose of this site is to jab at them or cut them down even. I think its far more effective to just correct the misinformation so others know the truth and arent lead astray, and let the arrogant, all knowing fool believe what he wants. If he is smart, he will see the error in his ways and if he isnt, then thats his loss and problem. Insults, just create unneeded confilct and confrontation. And thanks for the backing Dodge. Tar Alderion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Admin Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 It has been brought to my attention that this thread needs moderated. Any time a viewer feels uncomfortable, feels they must defend themselves, or feels they no not want to post, something is not right. Please work things out very quickly and please be respectful of each other. Site Admin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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