frankyluckman Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Oh yea I think I'm gonna get a Sahinler.....But I also need a BIG one!..Not sure if I even really need a big hammer? I doubt if I will ever make anything that Heavy. Spent the last 20 years trying to make everything smaller and lighter.....Now Heavy Steel! .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 This looks more like your style Jesse. Pneumatic Power Hammer - Beche 220 lbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Here's a 300 pound Beaudry hammer for sale in eastern Canada:Beaudry Champion forging hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Big hammers are nice to have. I think the first thing you have to determine what the "average" size of stock you work is, and purchase a hammer in line with that need. Most people I know have a hammer in the range of 50lb, think about it, you just may have to take a heat or two more. I think control is more important, and if you do many different kinds of work, quick change type dies are a must. I just do mostly drawing and reducing with my hammer, so one set of combonation fuller and flat dies is all I need. The other thing to consider is how much you are going to use it, a full time used hammer will eventually need parts, so you need someone to supply them also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Crud.... I should really read all of a thread before I start running off at the neck.. First off a little self serving... I have a Pettingell sheet metal hammer that I have been tripping over for a few years that I really need get put together.. You think it would be possible to help out my shop mate Joe with a little feedback as to how it should be assembled? He is really the sheet metal guy between us... The numbers on the hammer are EE-70 and If I remember right Fay said it was a #3? it has an adjustable lower die (cranks up and down) and is fairly small.... If it would be ok I'll have him shoot you a pm and tell you his ideas... Here is a slide show of our two current projects, both low buck builds http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/hendrixsolo/Latest%20Custom%20-%2009/?albumview=slideshow Both bikes have a handful of hand forged parts.... As far as you and your hammer quest.... Yes... , you need a big hammer... but you also need a little hammer... and probably a hydraulic or fly press... Just as in sheet metal work there is no "end all be all" tool.... I own a 110lb Say Mak, (basically the same as the small Sahinler) a 200lb Chambersberg and a 300lb Nazel... All will do something that warrants there spot on the floor. And yeah, the old hammers are kinda like a marriage... They dont always just "work" You have to love them, care for them and listen to what they have to say... My Nazel I bought as a basket case.. the ram was busted in two when I got her and it took several years and a lot of help but now she runs like a watch, the Chambersberg I have apart now but she is a really sweet machine with very little use.... They may not work any different than a new Striker or other import hammer but there is something magical about old iron.. My Nazel is about 5 tons of 4140... not much else that is as "real" as that....I could go into a lengthy bit about why each has its place but my guess is you already have a pretty good idea... One thing to keep in mind is that a well tuned "big" hammer (200-500lb) will move material in that fluid way that makes big iron cool. You can pound away all xxxxxxx day on a 50 lb hammer, or even a 100lb hammer and never get the same affect as a hand full of blows under a 300+ machine... Its about the displacement of mass and the energy absorbed... I am sure you have seen work that shows what I am talking about but I am not really sure how to label it. Something else that I myself really screwed up is there is a lot to be said for learning your hand skills and putting time in standing at a anvil... I think one of the biggest ways I cheated myself is as soon as I caught the blacksmith 'bug" I bought a powerhammer, and then a second.... I have been at this about 7 years and have now had no less than 20 that I have bought, sold, used or traded.... (there are 5 total at my shop now, Six if you counted the Pettingell..) And I am just now getting to the point that I am having to go back and really learn my handwork in order to progress.... I skipped big sections of the learning curve because I had the ability to buy a bunch of equipment.. and now I am paying the price. It seemed like I was moving forward really fast when I didn't know better then all of a sudden I learned enough to realize how little I knew.... Anyway... swinging that hammer is important, nothing will improve your understanding of how that hot iron moves more than throwing that hammer at it.... All that said there is a Nazel 4N for sale locally ( Seattle area ) The 4N is whats considered a "heavy duty" open die hammer in that it has external guides for the ram. The downside to that is there is not as much room for tooling because the of it... Mike has been trying to sell it for some time, Last I heard he was down to $6000 which is a give away price... I have been to see the hammer in person and ran it a bit, Its not perfect but its a runner and it wouldnt take much to make it 100% The worst part about the hammer is its set out back behind his house and there is no road that will support heavy equipment. I moved a 100lb Fairbanks hammer out of the shop and we had to skid it with chains and a winch at least a hundred yards before we could get at it with a forklift. I suppose a RT crane would have no trouble but my guess is it would take at least a grand to get it set on a truck, maybe $1500.... If you are at all interested I would be happy to do the work on this end gratis just to say i did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 A couple pics of my shop an me working A couple of the little hammers I went and saw in Utah a few months back The big one is a 1500lb Chambersberg... the little one a 750lb... And my pretty wife for scale :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Holy XXXX Batman! Thats a big hammer or she is a small woman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Thanks for coming to my rescue in respect of the big hammer syndrome. I also agree power is nothing without control and if you don't know how to forge by hand your just going to screw it up under a hammer or get hurt very badly. Is that forge shop still open in Utah? Just keepin tabs on all these hammers that are still standing, no I don't have a map with push pins in it. Nice shop and bikes!!! Edited December 7, 2009 by Danger Dillon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) If you had any interest in my little Say Mak hammer Id sell it and drive it down for the gas money.... Its a 2006 model and sat till this spring unused when I bought it.. Like I said earlier its basically the same machine as a Sahinler They sold for $9K + shipping new without a base. Mine has a nice solid base built out of heavy plate and Id sell it for $7K That is as long as I can get the hammer bought that I want to replace it with :) Edited December 8, 2009 by monstermetal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Thanks for coming to my rescue in respect of the big hammer syndrome. I also agree power is nothing without control and if you don't know how to forge by hand your just going to screw it up under a hammer or get hurt very badly. Is that forge shop still open in Utah? Just keepin tabs on all these hammers that are still standing, no I don't have a map with push pins in it. Nice shop and bikes!!! thanks. Yeah the shop is running and working the hammers. The shop is Graham ironworks in Provo. Roger is a talented smith and a nice guy. Both those hammers started life at the Geneva steel mill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Holy XXXX Batman! Thats a big hammer or she is a small woman! Both! She is 5 foot nothing so that gives you a pretty good idea of size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 If you had any interest in my little Say Mak hammer Id sell it and drive it down for the gas money.... Its a 2006 model and sat till this spring unused when I bought it.. Like I said earlier its basically the same machine as a Sahinler They sold for $11K + shipping new without a base. Mine has a nice solid base built out of heavy plate and Id sell it for $7K That is as long as I can get the hammer bought that I want to replace it with Do you have to be on the TV to get that deal?:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Do you have to be on the TV to get that deal? Nope. But it is contingent on me being able to buy the "other" hammer I got my eye on. If that deal goes away then I won't part with the lil green meanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 What's the footprint of that hammer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyluckman Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Crud.... I should really read all of a thread before I start running off at the neck.. First off a little self serving... I have a Pettingell sheet metal hammer that I have been tripping over for a few years that I really need get put together.. You think it would be possible to help out my shop mate Joe with a little feedback as to how it should be assembled? He is really the sheet metal guy between us... The numbers on the hammer are EE-70 and If I remember right Fay said it was a #3? it has an adjustable lower die (cranks up and down) and is fairly small.... If it would be ok I'll have him shoot you a pm and tell you his ideas... Here is a slide show of our two current projects, both low buck builds Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket Both bikes have a handful of hand forged parts.... As far as you and your hammer quest.... Yes... , you need a big hammer... but you also need a little hammer... and probably a hydraulic or fly press... Just as in sheet metal work there is no "end all be all" tool.... I own a 110lb Say Mak, (basically the same as the small Sahinler) a 200lb Chambersberg and a 300lb Nazel... All will do something that warrants there spot on the floor. And yeah, the old hammers are kinda like a marriage... They dont always just "work" You have to love them, care for them and listen to what they have to say... My Nazel I bought as a basket case.. the ram was busted in two when I got her and it took several years and a lot of help but now she runs like a watch, the Chambersberg I have apart now but she is a really sweet machine with very little use.... They may not work any diffrent than a new Striker or other import hammer but there is something magical about old iron.. My Nazel is about 5 tons of 4140... not much else that is as "real" as that....I could go into a lengthy bit about why each has its place but my guess is you already have a pretty good idea... One thing to keep in mind is that a well tuned "big" hammer (200-500lb) will move material in that fluid way that makes big iron cool. You can pound away all freaking day on a 50 lb hammer, or even a 100lb hammer and never get the same affect as a handfull of blows under a 300+ machine... Its about the displacement of mass and the energy absorbed... Im sure you have seen work that shows what Im talking about but Im not really sure how to label it. Something else that I myself really screwed up is there is a lot to be said for learning your hand skills and putting time in standing at a anvil... I think one of the biggest ways I cheated myself is as soon as I caught the blacksmith 'bug" I bought a powerhammer, and then a second.... Ive been at this about 7 years and have now had no less than 20 that I have bought, sold, used or traded.... (there are 5 total at my shop now, Six if you counted the Pettingell..) And I am just now getting to the point that I am having to go back and really learn my handwork in order to progress.... I skipped big sections of the learning curve because I had the ability to buy a bunch of equipment.. and now Im paying the price. It seemed like I was moving forward really fast when I didn't know better then all of a sudden I learned enough to realize how little I knew.... Anyway... swinging that hammer is important, nothing will improve your understanding of how that hot iron moves more than throwing that hammer at it.... All that said there is a Nazel 4N for sale locally ( Seattle area ) The 4N is whats considered a "heavy duty" open die hammer in that it has external guides for the ram. The downside to that is there is not as much room for tooling because the of it... Mike has been trying to sell it for some time, Last I heard he was down to $6000 which is a give away price... I have been to see the hammer in person and ran it a bit, Its not perfect but its a runner and it wouldnt take much to make it 100% The worst part about the hammer is its set out back behind his house and there is no road that will support heavy equipment. I moved a 100lb Fairbanks hammer out of the shop and we had to skid it with chains and a winch at least a hundred yards before we could get at it with a forklift. I suppose a RT crane would have no trouble but my guess is it would take at least a grand to get it set on a truck, maybe $1500.... If you are at all interested I would be happy to do the work on this end gratis just to say i did it. Hey man thanks for the hammer info! Just confirms that I'm not the only person with this sickness for vintage cast iron tools.... Would like to see some pic's of the #3 Petingil. I have one and its one of my favorite hammers. Would also like to see some pic's of that Nazel 4N.... Sportys look cool! Didn't catch your name? jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Well Jesse.... Thanks for the kind words on the sportys, They are both my bikes but 90% of the work has been done by my shop mate Joe Cooper.. He is self taught but is hoping to go do a workshop with Fay this spring... I really think he is a talented kid and I have been trying to do everything I can to get him started, including a year and a half in my shop rent free... The deal on the bikes was Id supply the parts and he would do the work and we would split what ever we got... I just got him into his own space and I think he is going to do well... I dont think its a great time to be a no name bike builder but his heart is in it 100% and I think he is willing to do what it takes ... Here are some pics of the Pettingell taken with my phone... I can take some better ones if there is something specific I should be looking for... It came from your back yard... Up in Irwindale... It belonged to a friend of my Dads who wanted to set it up to run with a old single cylinder farm engine... He thought it was a blacksmiths hammer.. Anyway my dad is somewhat a collector of sheetmetal tools (as well as old steam and gas motors other old iron... I'll attach a couple pics of a few of his big tractors and an engine or two) and coughed up enough cash to convince him to part with it... Ive had it for a few years and now that Joe is doing some paying sheetmetal work it might finally get put together... I got a P5 Pullmax earlier this year and between the two I think Joe will have plenty to play with.... I'll see if I can get in touch with Mike on the 4N... It might take a bit to get some pics of it but I'll start working on it... And my name is Larry Lee Langdon but around the local blacksmith group Im just known as "the kid with all the tattoos".. My shop is "Monster Metal" The Monster part originated from the two monsters I have tattoo'ed on the back of my hands... They are there to remind me that If I dont keep them in check, They might just take over... Most people think I ripped the name off from your show.. Which is fine too.... Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 What's the footprint of that hammer? I'll have to measure it, but its not very big... I would guess two feet by 6 feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think that 300# Beaudry in Canada has been posted for several years now. I remember seeing it when I was looking for info on mine. Hard to believe it would still be available??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Monstermetal, Are your big hammers just sitting on wood cribbing, unbolted to the floor? Is there a separate foundation for the hammers ? How's that all work out ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Monstermetal, Are your big hammers just sitting on wood cribbing, unbolted to the floor? Is there a separate foundation for the hammers ? How's that all work out ? The Chambersburg is actually on a cart that I use while the hammers are being worked on so I can roll them out and get some elbow room... But yes... both are one peice hammers and I run them on a wood skid unbolted to the floor. My feeling is that you loose a certain amount of performance without having a substantial foundation. Mass under the hammer is important... Previous smaller hammers I made substantial performance gains by adding steel and lead to increase mass in the anvil triangle (everything within a 30 deg pyramid from the lower die) But I have a rented shop and the expense and permanence of having a foundation I don't think offset the performance I would gain for my application... Keep in mind that the Nazel is steel.... Not just steel but 4140 (as per the Nazel literature) The one peice hammers where designed and sold for "light duty" applications where foundations where not practical.. My understanding is most went on Navy ships.. Thats where mine came from.... If someday I can build or buy my own shop I'll pour foundations for the hammers.. But I dont have any concerns about running them without... Now I would not run a Chinese one peice without a foundation... I would worry about busting the base... They claim to be "Semi-steel" I think that's just another way to say low carbon percentage cast iron..... I have worked on several other 300lb range hammers and my 3B does not have quite the blow of a two peice 300lb Chambersberg.. but I have great control... in all fairness The 3B is not really a 300lb hammer either... The ram weighs 265lb and the die around 35... in a Chambersburg the ram is more like 295, the die brings it up in the 330-340 range... As a side note I never really intended to run them unbolted to the floor... I got in a hurry when I moved the 3B once and ran it just sitting on some timbers... I found it rock solid... she stays put.. so I figured what are bolts really going to do? I wold like to find a chunk of 2" plate just bigger than the base of each hammer and bolt that to the underside just to add mass someday... see what that does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I'm trying to imagine how loud a 3B would be ,that was bolted [presumably] to a steel deck ,inside a steel ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyluckman Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 My shop is "Monster Metal" The Monster part originated from the two monsters I have tattoo'ed on the back of my hands... They are there to remind me that If I dont keep them in check, They might just take over... Most people think I ripped the name off from your show.. Which is fine too.... Larry Monster anything anything sounds cool to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 That is a classy looking knuck! Not much of your fingerprint on it, real zen of building. 47 or a FLP power plant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Everyone is turning out some cool stuff, I love old machines as well a friend of mine is a elevator mechanic and he pulled out a sweet OTIS elevator brake its basicly a watts governor for a steam engine converted with a Spring loaded trap for the cable if the elevator goes too fast the top pops up from centrifugal motion and it snaps shut since the cable runs though the otis governor unit the elevator must go all the way to the top and be locked in position the cable released and pulled back though the unit, most guys are cutting though the otis governor instead of pulling the cable back though it which is a shame these things look pretty amazing parts of it are made of bronze maybe even all of it the thing was 100 years old and the paint looked like brand new, haha it must have been lead paint. this thing is essentialy what made the otis company because it was not only the first but such a superior mechanism for elevator safety invented in the 1850's and still is use everyday all over the world if you get on a real slow elevator chances are it has the otis unit on it, Anyways after the first couple posts, I was thinking this MUST Be Jesse james and it was, You have made some amazing stuff in your time with metal, I loved that airplane engine bike you made (7 cylinder?) that must be a terror to ride I am a sheet metal worker as well I started learning how to weld on tig and tig only on stainless eventually I learned how to mig without a mess I love the look of raw metal finish on sheetmetal, I have tryed to form stainless but find it to be a @itch to work with, aluminum is nice and easy it seems like the only way to go if you are working only by hand without machines one day I will have a english wheel and a planishing hammer but probley not soon lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Hey Jesse, you really should quit playing with gas for your work. Check out the Induction Forges I sell: YouTube - Flat coil playing around There are a number of videos under "induction forge". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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