Brasilikilt Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hey all I'm remembering something I read (possibly on here) about a formula stating that the largest hammer you should use for heavy pounding should be no more than 1/20th of your anvil's weight. Is this formula generally accurate? Normally I wouldn't be concerned, but I have seen the face start to separate on the 180 lb Vulcan at school after being subjected to some heavy pounding. According to that formula, it was supposedly "safe" to use a 9 lb sledge on an anvil of that weight....... You can see why I want to be on the side of caution before using a heavier sledge on my 178 lb. Trenton..... It was a real pain in the derriere for me to even *locate* a good anvil, and it was pretty danged expensive! It's much easier to ask the questions and open the discussion now, than it is to to repair a damaged anvil later. Thanks Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hey, Brasi! Well, the ratios given are mostly in relation to efficiency, you don't have to worry about damage. Well, unless you miss the work and hit the anvil! Even 10:1 is O.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Leppo Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Anvilfire "Guru" says 50:1Selecting an Anvil : Which is right for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 There are several threads on IForgeIron about hammer to anvil ratios. An anvil is a tool and with use (and abuse) wear patterns will form on the anvil. Many times this can be see on an anvil in heavy use where heavy hammers were used. There are other anvils where similar work was done in only one place and in time formed a pattern (impression or depression) in the metal. The bottom line is to match the hammer to the anvil and the work being done. A 10 pound hammer on a 20 pound anvil for 10 hours a day is NOT a good match. Most hand hammers are suggested to be 2,3,4 pounds. Many of the anvils in photos of turn of the century blacksmith shops appear to be 200 - 300 pound anvils. Industrial shops have anvils weigh double that and much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f83/hammer-size-vs-anvil-size-1187/ :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I recall reading that historic anvils were effectively what we call stake anvils, so that would be striking on an anvil only about 5x the weight of the hammer. (15# anvil) This stake would be set into a log or other heavy stable object. How long were these anvils expected to last under use? The size was forced due to low availability of raw material, so having an anvil fail would have been a big deal. Thinking about the other end of this concept here. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Vulcans are a cast iron anvil with a comparatively thin steel face on it as such they do not react to punishment as well as a traditionally made anvil will. So even if they "look large" that face is thinner than a much smaller anvil made in the traditional way and so should be downgraded in weight of hammer used on it. Historically there are several factors: In earlier times using real wrought iron it was worked at white heat and so being very soft you didn't need as heavy a hammer to work it and less force was generated on the anvil as deformation used more of it. Remember too that a smith could very well reforge a small anvil back into shape. As to how long between doing so---how good is the smith and strikers, what are they making? How much of it? Out of what?---harder alloys will degrade the tooling faster. Also anvils were a "consumable" if you look in 19th century blacksmithing journals you will find adds to send in your anvil and get it refaced and trued back up. Ads will also make claims that their anvils won't sag under heavy work like "others' anvils" will. Finally if you visit the Roman museum in Bath England you will see a lovely example of an anvil from that time---a steel cube where the face has mushroomed making it a gentle curve now. Very usable still. Edited October 5, 2009 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The shock of the blow rebounds from the interface between the anvil and its base; the weight of the base makes little difference to the qualities of the anvil, it merely stops it walking around the shop; in the same way the shock in the hammer head rebounds from the non striking end of the head. The speed off the impulse through the metal is constant, only its force can vary. Some hammer/anvil combinations feel more 'natural/comfortable' than others, although as naked anvil says it shouldn't damage the anvil unless you miss. The energy in the blow varys with the square of the speed of the blow and it is easily possible to hit harder with a 2lb hammer than a 4lb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) I recall reading that historic anvils were effectively what we call stake anvils, so that would be striking on an anvil only about 5x the weight of the hammer. (15# anvil) .....How long were these anvils expected to last under use?.... My stake anvil is much larger than 15 pounds, probably closer to 80 to 100 pounds. I have seen a bunch of stake anvils over the years this size and larger. I can think of three museums within driving distance that have large stake anvils, if memory serves me correctly. And according to the 1863 Ordnance Manual the anvil and block for use with a mountain howitzer was 38.5 pounds. The smaller stakes of around 15 pounds that I have, and have seen, so far seem to be usually intended to sit in stake holders. A period of history where stake anvils was the norm is not really a period of history that I am knowledgeable about. Perhaps you are thinking about anvils intended to sharpen tools, and anvils used in Africa and Asia? Just my opinion, mileage may vary. Live long and prosper. Dave E. Edited October 5, 2009 by UnicornForge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 No he's thinking about anvils used during Migration and Early medieval periods---think viking age anvils not the recent stuff used in America during the last couple of hundred years and so in American museums. Although at El Camino Real International Heritage Center in New Mexico they have an example of a traveling smith's anvil that is a small stump anvil that was used out here in colonial times. I have both an early small stump anvil and the later larger stake anvils as shown in Renaissance paintings (Like "Venus at the Forge of Vulcan" of course there are a number with that name...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Yes, I was thinking about viking and early medieval periods. Times when a nice rock was more frequently used as an anvil. I did not think about a smith being easily able to reforge the anvil of this size, or that an anvil is considered a consumable. If the smith is able to reforge and heat treat the anvil, would that indicate a homogeneous steel for the anvil? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 They didn't have homogeneous steels back then; it was wrought iron for the most part and blister or natural steels (natural steels come from high carbon blooms). The whole reason for the folding and welding done on steels back then was to make them more homogeneous!) The anvil generally would not have steel as a part of it, too expensive to waste! However as mentioned wrought iron worked at a white heat is soft enough to work quite well on a cold wrought iron face. In Western Europe "homogeneous steels" came from the crucible steel process pioneered by Huntsman in the 1700's. In central Asia wootz and other crucible steels were know from quite earlier times but were produced in small quantities at a time and generally reserved for blade making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 I ask a simple question and expect some simple answers...... Instead I get people with plenty of experience and know-how under their belt spending the time to type out some very informative and well thought out answers...... As a result, I'm learning a lot more than I realized there was to learn about this. That's why I'm grinning now So, hitting a medium sized anvil with a big 8 lb sledge is not necessarily considered to be abusing it if it's done with an appropriate amount of accuracy........This makes sense. I have (many times) seen people using big sledge hammers on anvils smaller than my own, and didn't give it much thought......There anvils weren't abused.....It's an anvil after all, that's what they're made for! I've seen a few anvils that were pretty bashed up, and thought that they likely got that way from using hammers that were too heavy. Now it seems apparent that their owners simply didn't have the experience needed to do their forging properly. About stake anvils...... Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't stake anvils typically paired with a larger block anvil? The heavy forging was done on the block anvil, and the stake anvil was used as the anvil horn/lighter forging? thanks again everyone! Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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