ironstein Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 Grant, Brians right, you ARE a genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) Well, gee. What kind of friend would I be to contradict Brian? I have the utmost respect for his opinion.:cool::p Edited September 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Now that is funny! I didn't know you were a comedian, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Ta Grant Will contemplate some of your ideas. I may if time forge up one of these blanks and punch it while getting some photos taken tomorrow so as you can see the process better. We use the hammer to punch these as after punching them we hold the tooll with the hammer to knock the hammer we are forging out of the tool with a sledge,(are you confused now). Then we in the same heat forge the octogan on both ends of the hammer. I'll post one of the hammers in its finished state any way, see if I can get some action shots tomorrow. Ta Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Question for Grant: I have not had good results dipping hot H-13 tools in water.....Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 And I have had great luck cooling H-13 in water! HOT WATER! I get it straight out of the HOT tap. Very poor quenchant. Much better to rotate two tools as the hot water is very slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Now to find a hot tap! kidding I can make it my own self...Thanks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Forgemaster, For the work you are doing, you may want to look at using a steel like Vascowear or similar. This is a much more highly alloyed steel than H13, almost on par with a high speed steel. Normally you wouldn't use these grades for this type of work, but if you have the means to do a proper heat treatment and you design the tool to resist spalling, it will hold up even better than H13. I made a slot punch from this grade last year and punched through 2 blocks of 2.5" square wrought iron with it. The end turned red, but the square edge never rolled over. It was a great tool for that application. Unlike H13, this grade is NOT good for cold impact tooling. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks Patrick, who makes Vascowear ,its not a name I have heard before. Ta Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary S Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I've found some info on forging, annealing, and heat treatment of H13 at this web site. Tool Steel Stockholders, Steel Stockists Suppliers Special Steel Stockists Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Vascowear was made by Teledyne Vasco, but I believe they are no longer in buisness. I think a similar product is avialable from Carpenter Steel. If you do a google search for Vascowear you should find it. You probably could also use any of the commonly available high speed steels such as M2 or M42. Just make sure you get your tooling properly heat treated. I was aiming for a hardness of 50 HRC with my punch. This gives a good balance of hardness and resistance to deformation at high temps. Depeding on your needs you could temper higher for increased temperature reisitance. Make sure you DON'T heat treat too hard. The normal hardness range for these grades is pushing or exceeding 60 HRc and that is just too hard and brittle for forge tooling. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Bit iffy using HSS under a hammer though. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Way too iffy for me! Old friend of mine down in 'Frisco lost a smith using high-speed punches. Chunk came off the punch and went right through his heart. Dropped him like .50cal. Saw one in a big press one time being pushed into billet of M-2. The top end of the punch seemed to explode! I think they miss-judged and bottomed out the punch. Don't know how that didn't kill someone! My own experience with high-speed steel and hot work has not been great either. No, properly heat treated H-13 is hard enough AND tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Grant/Ironstein, I would agree that most of the time high speed steel is not a great choice for hot work tooling, but remember that I qualified my recommendation with a specific hardness -50 HRc. Even 4340 will get that hard and that is a typical hardness for anvil faces, hammers and hammer dies. In the tool I made, I intentially tempered to a hardness SOFTER than it would normally be used at since I wanted to pound on it. I also radiused the striking end. The reason I suggested this grade over H13 is that in some cases, such as the long, fairly narrow hole described earlier, H13 will get hot enough to bend in the work. Certainly bending is preferable to catastrophic, uncontrolled failure, but in the right applications I think that high alloy steels could safely be used. When you suggested press forging I envisioned a process in with the punch is pushed in mechanially or hydrallically. In such an arrangment, the dimensions of the dies would be set to prevent bottoming out a tool and you wouldn't have the impact loading associated with hammer forging. As you know, service failures are not all material related, but can also be related to tooling design, including hardness. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Old friend of mine down in 'Frisco lost a smith using high-speed punches. Chunk came off the punch and went right through his heart. Dropped him like .50cal. Yikes. You got my attention with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Sorry Patrick, I missed your second post. I do believe that even at low 50Rc that high-speed is much more brittle than H-13. I've had very good luck with H-13 and have never had a long punch bend from over heating, usually its just the end that gets that hot. I believe Forgemaster was using a setup with matching hole in the bolster, so bottoming out is not a problem. I DO switch to H-21 for some applications, but have not had good experiences with high speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisG Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I have a question. I want to make drifts for doing the eye of hammers. What size do I need to have for material? I have access to drills and some very thick material (http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f83/making-anvil-13878/) in the shop I work. What is a good size eye to make? Can anyone post pics of their drifts and punches they use? I do have some various sized tool steel from "Down hole" drilling bits and reamers (4145H heat-treated, stress-relieved steel), some of it from 1 1/4" - 3" dia. Unless I should just use mild steel. I have also read that to make it easier I could drill out a start hole of about 5/8" - 7/8", but should the hole be off center, more to the pein side. any and all suggestions / help / comments muchly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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