ironstein Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm sure this question has been asked a thousand times, but if you have any info i would appreciate it. How is h13 to forge? Do you stick to a specific temperature range? How do you make your chisels, punches, drifts etc? Do you mostly grind away excess material or do you forge to your wanted shape and then grind edges? I ordered some 3/4 h13 to make tools, and i don't want to ruin good tool steel as i am new to this whole process. I wanted to start out with some durable stuff for my first tools, but from what i have read, most people talk about spring steel, not h13. I understand it is quite durable, but cooling while using for hot work is important. I have heard some say that tempering is not needed because the hot work and cooling will temper it automatically. Again sorry if this is a redundant topic. Also if anyone has some pictures of their punches and chisels, and drifts i would be interested in seeing them. especially that really long drift Mr Brazeal uses to make hammers. Seems like a good idea to have a long drift for alot of varied sizes of holes. thanks Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Don't really know the answer to your question but did a quick Google for H13 and found this page. Sounds like tough stuff to forge if you let the temperature drop too much. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 You should come by before I am gone! There is a thread that I posted on "Tools from Spring" that show a good starter set of punches and chisels. Nobody asked very many questions, but it shows a little information. Save the H13 for about 10 years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 is the h13 that difficult to work with? I'm not concerned with cost. I know it has a narrow margin of heat but is it still difficult to work with with the right heat zone? Is the gist of what you are saying that it is beyond my skill level at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Brian, When are you planning on leaving? I'd love to come by, unfortunately the next two weekends are out. I think you are only 2 1/2 hours away. I have to work during the week. I am starting a huge job at the naval base near china lake though, so in the future i won't be that far from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Brian, When are you planning on leaving? I'd love to come by, unfortunately the next two weekends are out. I think you are only 2 1/2 hours away. I have to work during the week. I am starting a huge job at the naval base near china lake though, so in the future i won't be that far from you. I am not planning on coming back to California except to visit , so you will be far away. And yes, H13 is beyond your capabilities if you are just starting out. Check out "Tools Fordged from Spring" and ask a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I have forged quite a bit of H13 and I like it a lot for detail tooling, some power hammer tooling and hardy cut off tools. It is harder to move under the hammer than spring still and has a somewhat narrower working range, but it is not prone to crubling like the highly alloyed tool steels. Work it at a yellow heat. Stop hitting when it won't move any more. If you are starting with annealed stock, which you should be if you are buying it new, heat only the end that will be the working end. Forge to shape and air cool. DO NOT HEAT the striking end. If you do, it will be very hard and prone to chipping which is quite dangerous. If you have only a short piece of steel or do heat the end, you can make a mild carbon steel sleeve and press fit or weld it over the striking end to provide a soft striking surface. H13 can be welded, but needs to be preheated. When I've done it, I heat almost to a red heat, weld and slow cool. Ideally this would be followed by a high temperature tempering cycle. H13 is a great tooling material, but you can make great tools from spring stock too. You just have to cool those tools more frequently than the H13. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) If you are forced to heat/forge the struck end of the tooling... I've had good luck with running several pretty high heat tempering cycles on just the struck end. Take up to a good dull cherry (but still well below critical temp!), and slow cool in a bucket of vermiculite or similar. I do this three or so times, and end up with a tool that doesn't damage my hammer, and doesn't chip (so far anyway). Really, really like this material for hot cut chisels and punches. To answer your original question. For the working end of the tools heat to critical temp, let soak for a few minutes (longer for thicker sections), then air cool. If it's a tool that you want quite hard, then hold it in front of a fan. Wear eye protection while doing this, as the scale will pop off violently as the piece cools. As you mentioned tempering may or may not be required. If I recall correctly the tempering should be done at 900 to 1100 depending on the hardness you require. I do temper my hot cuts and punches mostly as I don't want them to break on the first use. After the first use particularly with punches, I don't worry, 'cause they get tempered in use. My .02$. Edited August 18, 2009 by mcraigl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Very informative guys, thanks. I am a beginning blacksmith although i have been working with steel for fifteen years or so as an ironworker. I just want to make some good, durable tools. I have always been real picky about my tools, i like them nice and strong. I would gladly spend the money to have good quality steel rather than save some, and use stuff that i will have to redress/remake alot. Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumptown Forge Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I have to agree with Brian that it is not a good material if you are just starting. First because of its excellent properties it can cause some pretty bad habits because it is so forgiving. More importantly its tuff stuff and because of the narrow forging range needs to be forged quickly. Forging H13 especially in the 3/4 to 7/8 range for hand tools is really power hammer work. I use this material for nearly all hot tools in my shop. It is important to soften the striking side of the tool as previously discussed. I find that I prefer the S1 - S5 and S7 steels for cold cutting tools or edge tools that I use in the fly press etc. This is a great material to use. Its consistent, has great durability but it has a learning curve and you need to be very careful not to heat up past critical tempature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I love H13 for shop made tools. Just like carbon steel, there are visual indicators of the proper heat for everything. Forge at a yellow, reheat to orange and put in vemiculite to "normalize". Yes, that is only normalize for H-13, air cooling is hardening. Heat to orange, just below yellow and cool in front of a fan. Draw at the dullest red you can see in a dark shadow. On symetrical tools I often oil quench. That's chancy but gives a better tool. I ALWAYS harden the top and draw at a dull red. It's not brittle, it's strong. Soft tops mushroom and work harden. The most brittle condition for steel is work hardened. I "cool" my tools in use with hot tap water, not real effective but I've never cracked on that way. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 On tools that are forged, there is no such thing as "not heat treated". Whether you like it or not, it IS heat treated. And whether it is a good heat treat depends on way too many variables. That's why I like to do a "formal" heat treat. Sure, almost anything you do on an air hardening steel will make it harder than it was, but "real" heat treating is superior and safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Grant, you are absolutely correct, but this is a guy that has never made a punch or chisel and he is thinking that H13 will hold up forever like nothing else will. I think that it is better to start with a steel that yeilds more easily to the hammer. The forging itself is the start of creating a superior structure that will hold up when tested like we do when we forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Actually if you read my posts, i stated simply that i wanted a durable tool so as not to have to redress and rework constantly. Brian you are right i have never made a punch or a chisel. My first attempt on sunday turned into a pretty scary looking object. This is why i am shelving my h13 for ten years while i learn how to forge properly! My hammer control is so terrible that i think i need to work with some mild steel for a while to develop some technique before even attempting spring steel. I am thinking of building a solid fuel forge. Using the propane forge makes it difficult to control my heat, kind of all or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Brian: And I totally agree with you! Simple steels are the place to start. I was just going off the fact that he already had H-13. Looks like he learned just how hard H-13 is to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Ironstein, when you come by this weekend, we will work on some tooling. The name of the game is being able to MAKE, USE, and MAINTAIN your tools. No steel is indestructible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I guess I just missed your post Grant, and I agree with you. H 13 is some tough stuff to start with, but it will out preform most anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Grant, I haven't even attempted to forge the h13. I took Brians advice, it will be a long time before i attempt to use it. I need to just concentrate on the basics and not concern myself with what the pro's are using for tooling. Kind of got ahead of myself ordering some h13. Thanks Brian, i am looking forward to coming by this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I thought your "first attempt on Sunday" was with the H-13,........O.K., shut up, Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) Don't be so hard on youself, Grant. Like I said when I first saw you on this sight, you are a geneious! I don't think I spelt genious correctly. I guess that shows how smart I am. Edited September 2, 2009 by brianbrazealblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Brilliant maybe, but genius? Hmmm........:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 N'case you guys haven't noticed, Brian is one of my favorite blacksmiths. He's a use-what-ya-got, get-er-done, wham-bam-thank-you-m'am kinda guy. Give him a big rock, a small rock, a little fire and some iron and he'll be makin' stuff and be happy as a clam. Me? Well, I just gotta have my machines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) Hey Grant (Ironstein sorry for barging in) This has set me thinking. We forge a job which is a rail spiking hammer in which we punch the eye in a tool with a blob punch, one go. We use a cover plate about 1" thick on the tool to position and align the punch. We have used H13 with some success also used XK5179D, some success, spring steel, little success, EN26 some success. Normally we forge the punch to shape, an oval about 1 1/2' long x 1 1/8 wide by about 5" long, allowing a bit for grinding to final shape. The back of the punch is forged down smaller to allow clearance. We are punching through about 3 1/2 inches 4140. I normally normalise the whole punch, then take the cutting edge and about 1/2" down to a orange and drop into the quench oil. The failures we have had are the punches bending mid hole, the cutting edges spalling off, the striking end spalling, the cutting end upsetting inside the job and becoming stuck in the job. It normally takes about 5 blows to punch the eye through with the punch coming out at about 500 deg C. Any suggestions re better punch material, heat treatment, etc. What would you use. Ta Phil Edited September 2, 2009 by forgemaster to add stuff I forgot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) You got a big press, don't you? I like to press that kind of thing when I can. Allows the use of harder tooling. "If I was doing it"? I'd make an H-13 punch like you describe. Normalize then heat the whole thing to almost yellow and oil quench. Then draw at 1000 - 1100 F. H-13 is actually HARDER after drawing. I like overall heat treating. Pretty tall for the size. You pushing a barrel drift through after? Gonna loose the edge on the punch pretty fast. On a punch that tall I'd only taper about an inch back and have the shank barely undersize. Why 5" long? Bending force goes up withe the square of the length. 4" should be enough. Oh, your cover plate is 1". Why? Yeah, I'd punch and follow with a barrel drift. Edited September 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Forgemaster: Been doing some more thinking. If I had to do a lot of these I'd use a two piece punch and pusher. I'd probably start with a 1-1/4 inch round H-13 and flatten it down to 1-1/16 to make an oval. Then I'd machine a 5 degree oval taper on the end in my cnc mill. Heat treat as above. I'd make it as short as possible. Next I'd make a back-tapered punch about 1-1/2 inches long with a matching socket in the back. Heat treat this and use it to make a bolster (also H-13) or I'd probably just machine the bolster out. Now I can forge a pile of punches in the bolster and heat treat them. The pusher tool is fixed in the press. Lay a part up in the press, hold a punch on the end of the pusher and push it through. When you retract, the punch falls off (into a bucket of hot water). Kinda like a socket wrench and extension. All this because it's a small, deep hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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