big railing project

[MarkC]

So long story short, my good friend and partner on the fire dept. is a contractor on the outside. He is a cabinet maker and a fine finish man by trade, but he and his partners are trying their hand at real estate developing and they are building some swanky townhomes in the high rent district.

I've been at smithing for a couple years now, and he has been amazed at seeing real hand-wrought iron. I never got into blacksmithing to make money at it, but he has been chipping away at me all this time, calling me crazy for not flat out going into business. Well, he just dragged me into business, kicking and screaming, with an offer i can't refuse. He wants wrought iron handrails for the staircases which lead up to the swanky roof decks. At first it was just a set of wall-mounted handrails on the wall-side of the stair, with them building a fine wood balustrade and gallery rail along the outside. It's a major focal point.

Well, his partners were very impressed at my proposal and drawings, and the idea of wrought iron. Plus, he talked me way up, told them i was rather green at this but that I'd sooner jump off a bridge before I gave them something less than amazing (gulp). Now, they want me to make the entire shabang. The gallery rail, balustrade, the whole works. The main bannister that will be the focal point is about 9 feet long, so not too bad.

So, this'll be my first major commission, might be getting in over my head, but i can't possibly turn it down. It's a make or break opportunity. they are asking 1.25 million for each townhouse.

I've built some large stuff before, but never anything this big. Talk about a trial by fire, and jumping into the deep end, and all that. But I welcome the challenge and can't wait to get started. I know a lot of you guys and gals are real professionals and master smiths. I'd welcome any comments or tips you might have about forging something this large and important.

My bud is a lot of help as well, as a master finish man he builds many fine railings etc, and he showed me a lot of shortcuts on getting the proper angles, building the templates etc. (really, he walked me through the whole thing so i don't screw up his railings and waste time lmao)

your tips, tricks, and comments are warmly (desperately) welcomed.

-mark :o

Edited August 2, 2009 by MarkC

[Mark Emig]

First off, you want to make sure that you focus on it being a profitable job. Don't let yourself get suckered in with the old "it'll bring me more work in the long run", or "it's a high profile job" . If you lose your shirt on your first big job, you might not be in business long enough to recover from the loss. On a few of my first jobs, I way underbid, due to inexperience and wanting to have my work in a showpiece house. VERY tough to eat when you lose on a job. Double and triple check your time estimates-make a sample panel if necessary. It is easier to say "Sorry, I just can't do that quality work for that type of fee" or to revise your estimate before signing a cotract than let yourself go bankrupt over a job. In my experience, when I think I am getting in over my head-I probably am, and I need to be REALLY careful with the financial aspect. I ended up working for 2 and a half months on a job for next to nothing that I lost my shirt on. Guess what-it hasn't brought me in any more work. As for the mechanical aspect I know that many of us in this forum will be willing to help.
Mark Emig

[Sam Thompson]

Make sure that you have a large dead flat surface or a set of supports that can be accurately levelled with plenty of clear space around and adequate lifting/positioning gear.

[nuge]

Ditto on being careful with the money. Even more so because you are dealing through a friend. If they aren't at least a bit shocked by your #'s, you are probably not asking enough. Give yourself room to simplify joinery or design elements to make the job more affordable for the client if they can't meet your budget requirement's.

Also, get the finish lined out early. On big jobs it is really nice to have a pro do the painting and not have finish work (and warranty) even be part of your scope.

When doing large jobs, often the work work is the easy part.

[arftist]

Done a lot of large rail jobs, but better at answering specific questions.

[MarkC]

mark, nuge, i will check and double check the price and my time estimate ... things always do seem to go longer than I anticipate while forging, now that ya mention it ... especially when a lot of detail's involved. I haven't drawn the main pieces yet (tonight and tomorrow), i'll see if i can come up with a design that i know won't take forever for me to forge, hmm. Bang-for-your-time instead of bang-for-your-buck.

Sam, thank you very much for that . . . I hadn't thought that far ahead yet. I've got space enough for the project, and a concrete floor, the level of which i don't trust. I should start off by building a large layout/welding table, and some adjustable height supports . . . things I have been meaning to build anyways. Thank you for the tip.

[MarkC]

ahh, reminds me of high school, and making gates for my uncle's fence company . . . him constantly reminding you to be sure to level the mickey-moused jigs before welding, and then yelling when you'd stop work to recheck their level. lol

[Mick]

I'm a newbie blacksmith but a long time builder. Ditto for the above about costing especially Smithing Mans comments in the first reply, did I say that loud enough. When it comes to one off specialty stuff like this, nearly every tradesman I know will underestimate time requirements by a big margin. When you are taking on a project that is outside your experience base, like this one, I would definitely make a sample panel BEFORE I submitted a price.

If you need to build jigs, special layout tables, buy tooling etc, all of it should be factored into the price. The hours you spend negotiating, designing etc, should be factored into the price.

Make sure that your payment schedule is part of the contract as well as detailed specifications for your product, so that they and you know what you will be paid, when you will be paid and exactly what you are expected to supply.

A big thing to remember is that you cannot start building your railings etc until finished surfaces of the building are in place! You will be one of the last suppliers on the job, that is when the money, tempers, and patience is at it's shortest. Build schedules will have allready gone way over time and the pressure will be on for you to get your product installed.

Not trying to put you off but this stuff I know from hard learnt experience.

Good luck and I wish you success. I don't know who said it but its worth remembering, "There are no friends in business."

[MarkC]

Well I've got about 7 weeks to get them built, think that should be plenty of time. i am shooting for 3 weeks, if i can strike a good compromise between style and ease of build. The houses are still under construction, but I've already got the finished dimensions, so I can start building as soon as I finalize a drawing. I'm not going to short change myself. This guy is my partner though, we're full time city firefighters and i'm closer to him than my own brother. So the "courtesy price" I am extending to him is that i am charging them $35 an hour for the labor, when i would normally charge at least $50/hr to a normal customer, and i know that many smiths get much more than that.

But I do know that this job will lead to future work, his business partners (two brothers who are his lifelong best friends) were wowed at the idea of real wrought iron, they had never even considered hiring a blacksmith in 25 years of building, in fact they didnt even realize that people did this stuff. I think I'll be hearing from them again on future projects if this one comes out as good as i hope it will. i know one thing is for sure, they certainly won't be seeking out any OTHER blacksmiths... I just might "forget" to fill the hose with water for a few mins next time he's in a burning building!

[Dragons lair]

Mark, Here in NC mountains railings start at $100 per foot. As an old Conn yankee I know you can do better in Mass. BTW that is for plain rial and pickets.
Ken

[bigjohn]

Mark, I would advise " Do NOT rely on dimensions written by an architect on a big piece of vellum". When houses are under construction , dimensions change. Always, always did I mention always verify field dimensions before installation day. You would be amazed what 1/4 of 1 inch can do to your world. And I never did get around to building a handrail stretcher/shrinker. All the best with your project. Big John

[mtncrawler]

Just a point to be clear about with your clients Mark (as I'm sure you already know).

Are you producing railings out of wrought iron - the material - or building "wrought" iron railings from mild steel? Assuming the latter, but it would certainly make a difference in $$ and availability.

Good luck on your project/business! Just a bit jealous from cubicle land here..

Edited August 3, 2009 by mtncrawler

[MarkC]

Mark, I would advise " Do NOT rely on dimensions written by an architect on a big piece of vellum". When houses are under construction , dimensions change. Always, always did I mention always verify field dimensions before installation day. You would be amazed what 1/4 of 1 inch can do to your world. And I never did get around to building a handrail stretcher/shrinker. All the best with your project. Big John

John, thanks for that good advice. I think these measurements will be good, the building is all framed up, and the guy that I took the measurements with is the guy who will be finishing the staircase, so he knows exactly what the finished dimensions are going to be, and those are the ones he gave me to use and that he & I made the templates by.

I'm going to heed your advice and never make a drawing from the blueprints alone. sounds like very sound advice.

I cant get over the helpfulness here on this site. show me a group of craftspeople as eager to assist each other as much as blacksmiths. it's like some xxxxxx wierd fraternity or something.

Mtn, you make a good point. I was sure to put "Hot Rolled Mild Steel" right on the proposal.

[bigfootnampa]

Marc;

I've built a few sets of balustrades and a few sets of stairs too. Personally I would not assemble anything until I had finished stairs to verify measurements from. I'd check each stairway individually too. I think you should be okay with the detailed info you have to go ahead and make up the component parts and maybe pre-assemble some things. I'd sure wait to do my final assembly though... even master craftsmen like myself will adjust here or there and stringer stock is NEVER as straight as it should be. Even heavy steel railings will flex a little... but ONLY a LITTLE!

Fact is, I would probably take my main components (newels, rails, etcetera) to the site and have a helper to test fit and mark out before doing the permanent assembly. Mistakes are COSTLY!!! and they make you look unprofessional too.

Edited August 3, 2009 by bigfootnampa
typo

[MarkC]

Ok Big, that sold me. I'm gonna do exactly what you just said. Thanks very much. I guess these other fellas were saying about the same thing, but you just got through my thick skull. I will forge up as much as possible for now, preassemble some things, and then test fit on site before final assembly.

[David Einhorn]

Marc;..... Personally I would not assemble anything until I had finished stairs to verify measurements from. I'd check each stairway individually too. ..... Mistakes are COSTLY!!! and they make you look unprofessional too.

These suggestions are right-on. I have never seen a room or house construction that was *exactly* as drawn. Don't assume anything is as specified until you measure it. Please, Please. :D

[Mark Emig]

Some additional thoughts on pricing.This is not a personal attack-just purely business thoughts
1) $35.00 per hour is WAY too cheap. Hopefully you are figuring consumables/supplies additionally.Consumable and supplies eat a large chunk of money on a big job. By the time you take out taxes-yes you should pay taxes on it, it's income-you are going to get about 20 bucks an hour. You mentioned that you have other full time employment, so basically this is overtime. Is your overtime worth that? Is the guys building this 1.25 million dollar house working for 20 bucks an hour take home?
2) Figure out your TRUE shop costs- if you do this stuff in your garage it costs you, assuming that you have a mortgage and property taxes. Take the percentage of area your shop covers and figure out how much your shop actaually costs.
3) Forget the "I'll make less on this one cause it will lead to other work" idea. People who can spend a million or so on a home can afford good ironwork and if you price this one cheap, they will fight you on that basis forever. As soon as a friend says "What did it cost you" they will tell them.
4) Do you have insurance? If not GET IT.After the place is sold and some fool trips and hurts themselves-you WILL get sued. If you have no insurance, they will go after your assets (house,car, etc).
5) Pricing too low undervalues your work-and everyone elses also. If you do professional work, Price yourself accordingly-your work is worth it.
6) most people when they start way underestimate time. figure out what you think it will take and DOUBLE it. I'll pretty much guarantee that you'll find it REALLY hard to make your first time estimate. It took me a LONG time before I could estimate correctly. At this point, I take my time estimate and add 30 percent and I might come close.
7) Doing a big railing is a LOT of hard work-make sure you get paid accordingly.
Good luck.
Mark Emig

[Dragons lair]

One more thing to think about. If you need to weld or grind anything do it before the floors walls and trim are finished. I had to pass up one (glad I did) Y shaped staircase.
Balcony at the top.Marble floors, Mirror like treads and trim,plaster walls. Over 125 feet total. 2.5mil house. One scrape/scratch or weld spatter and your toast. Also another 125
feet of misc railings. All using fancy pickets ala Kings. Could I do it in a week for $2500.00? Not in this lifetime or the next. Hope you do well.
Ken.

[MarkC]

Thanks for your frankness Mark. Gonna take a good hard read of what you said. I'm not very concerned about the underpricing for a lot of reasons . . . the future owners will never know what I charged, as I am a subcontractor to the GC (my friend), and if asked, he will tell them it was extremely expensive (he's trying to sell the place after all lol). My biggest concern would be undermining the worth of other smiths and fabricators, but my pal is WELL aware of what the stuff goes for. He knows that this is a mutually beneficial arrangement, and he fully understands he's not going to get this kind of price for long. And I fully understand that they originally budgeted this staircase for fine wood here, and not hand-wrought iron. Fine wood which they, as fine woodworkers, would do themselves at a low cost. So it isn't a matter of me charging more . . . it would be a matter of me passing on the job. I can either do it for a price within their budget, or not do it, period. My bud is not out to chisel me, I was well aware of the intricacies of their loan and their budget long before he ever got the notion of asking me to forge something for the place. He's the first one to tell me to make sure i'm getting enough, and if I think it's not worth it, to just pass on it (actually he's been harping on me about it at work, because he doesn't want me being xxxxxx at him in the end, and it's getting annoying lol)

If I was a full-time professional smith, where I could lose money by this job taking longer than planned, and missing out on other work etc, then I would surely pass on it. But I'm not, and I've got no other big commissions on the horizon at the moment. And I'm pretty xxxx well excited to get my work out into the world, especially in a townhouse at the top of bunker hill in xxxxxxxx charlestown, massachusetts, on a major focal point stairway leading up to a roof deck with 360 degree city views of boston.

I'm sorry but I don't see how I can pass on the job and still get a good night's sleep.

Edited August 4, 2009 by MarkC
cluelessness

[MarkC]

haha no worries about that Ken . . . no on-site welding allowed at this place. Any hot work in that city larger than a plumbers torch requires a fire permit and a paid FD detail to be standing by at $38/hr.

all that in one week???? they got some xxxx nerve even asking that, i'd say.

Edited August 4, 2009 by MarkC

[Bryce Masuk]

Make sure you post your pictures as well mark,

I personally have never made a staircase that is all forged, or even mostly forged

you didnt mention whether you are going to be welding everything together or mortise and tennoning everything,

I have done alot of fabrication of gates and railings stairways, and stainless steel handrails all most all of these projects were what most blacksmith's would do with there eyes shut, but I would be a liar to say I didnt make any mistakes
making room for allowances can make or break you

Doing such a job will be quite the task you havent mentioned what style or what you are doing exactly but forging everything by hand is going to be an amazing amount of labour, even farbicating something like this for large job took me over week and that was just cutting and welding, not including polishing and measuring/designing

[bigfootnampa]

MarkC;
I used to be a firefighter too so I understand your situation. You'll be very glad that you decided to accept my advice!
Try to also come up with a fall back plan in case of falling TOO far behind schedule.... you DON'T want to put your brother in a bad spot. You might know another smith who could help with some components or maybe a good welder you could hire to help with the fabrication phase. Think about your options and maybe do a little spade work before the panic hits. As a firefighter you KNOW that the key to emergency responsiveness is preplanning, training and practice. Apply that stratagem to this project too. If you had a huge fire your dispatcher would have a whole cascading list of who to call for help... you need at least a shortened version of that for yourself and this project. You'll find it useful at some point for sure, whether on this project or a future one.

[MarkC]

Bryce, I'm not building a staircase, just some railings. Big, a former fireman eh? I knew you were the smartest guy on here! j/k

I hear everyone loud and clear about underestimating and the like, but really the main railing is about 9 feet long, up a short flight of stairs that become a 180* winder, which continues up to the roof. Only the 9 foot lower segment is the free-standing railing/balustrade I'll be forging, which dies into short gallery rail at the outside edge of the winder, and terminates into the wall as the stairs begin to wind. On the inside (wall side) it will be just wall-mounted handrails. As you ascend from the floor below, though, these stairs to the roof deck are your main focal point while climbing the stairs. So while this roof staircase isn't very large, it is a very key location for having something extremely nice.

I am making every effort to design them in such a way that they will be a nice piece of art, but that it wont take me two months to build. Already got a failsafe plan in place . . . If it gets near the end and I feel like I'm not going to be able to pull it off in time, my buddy wants a week or two notice so he can build the railings out of wood, no hard feelings. He understands that he is giving me my first crack at something like this. I lose time and money, of course, so I'm not gonna let that happen. I much prefer your advice of having assistants lined up, though, just in case, so i can be sure to bring this in on time.

He does not want scrollwork or anything too "gaudy" (his word). It's a very contemporary kind of city, and I think his target demographic is going to be the 30-50 urban professional hipsters (that's about 70% of what you get around there anyways), so I am trying to keep it a contemporary design, while making sure it is a real hand forged piece and not just some cut and pasted metal with the mig glue gun.

My plan so far is, toprail will have two components, 2" x 1/4" flat, shaped corners and hammered texture, topped by a 1/2" or 3/4" round, forged down to a D shape, centered along the toprail and riveted at intervals. At the rail at the base of the stairs, past the newel, the flat and round will make an artistic twist and scroll to return back to the newel. (this is a deign that he found while googling for ideas, and he loved it and wants the exact same thing. I will be completely stealing someone else's idea, and i don't know how I feel about that.)

For the balusters, 3/4" or 1" round, left as round, hammered for texture, to create a contemporary "jail cell" look (he wants this looking contemporary, and not like a "italian villa", his words). Each baluster will be wrapped, from the bottom up, with 3/8" or 1/2" round, tapered ends: that "vine" look. "vine" wrap will terminate about 1/3 the height of the balusters. I think this will create a nice uniform look to the balusters, avoid anything "gaudy" that he doesn't want, and will be very obviously hand-forged. Round balusters will have upset ends that terminate through punched-and-drifted sub-rails, which will be riveted to the newels.

Yeah, it's not going to be a cake walk, but i am not talking about making a whole mess of matching scrolls here.

[Sam Thompson]

If you need a textured round bar hammer it from square stock and vice-versa, merely 'distressing the bar looks cheap (in the American sense).

[Mick]

Mark, please don't get to feeling we're all ganging up on you. Everyone is on your side with this one, we just trying to beat the benefit of our own hard learned lessons into you in the hope you don't get caught out like we have in the past. Gotta tell ya some of the experiences can be real hard on your confidence, your faith in human kind, your ego but worst of all your wallet. Like kindly uncles we all want you to succeed, but ifn ya don't take heed I'll come over there and beat you about the head with a lump of 2x4.

I have faith in your enthusiasm and will to make good with this.

Last word from me on this : When your putting it together, believe your measurements but trust your eye.