mandomaniac Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hey folks, Sorry for the pretty basic questions...but still making my way up the learning curve. So please bear with me. Are the swages, fullers, etc made out of tool steel, then hardened and tempered? Or are they just mild steel and don't deform that much when forging hot steel to shape? As I thought about this, it seemed that all the nice hardening and tempering of tool steel would quickly be changed/lost as it red hot steel was being hammered against it for a period of time. I wonder if even treating cut hardies might be wasted. Less contact time, but hot none the less. I have several pieces of 4340 steel I wanted to make myself into various tools.... fullers, hardies, round and square swages, etc. Should I mill and use 'as is' or go through the heat treating process? Or for that matter....just use solid mild steel that I have as well? Here's another question...rather than milling different diameter round (or square) 'grooves' for swages, would simply heating to red hot then pounding a cold bar (round or square) into the block to appropriate depth do just fine? Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Your bottom tools (Swages fuller etc) - as a 'general' rule I make mine from mild steel and then case harden them. This is my treatment for all but 'edged' tools such as the cut-off hardy (this I make from tool steel). For most bottom swages I use (for a 1-inch hardy hole) about 4 to 4 1/2 inches of 1 1/4 inch square bar. I draw a blunt taper to one end and drive it into a swage block or suitable alternative with a 1 inch square hole in it. The taper will be driven part way into the square hole and then will start to be upset. I sop when the mass is about 1 to 1/8 inches thick. The last thing is to drive in (or carve out) the shape that you want. I like to consider this a blacksmithing approach rather than a machinists approach as it gives me more time with a hammer in my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welder19 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Here's another question...rather than milling different diameter round (or square) 'grooves' for swages, would simply heating to red hot then pounding a cold bar (round or square) into the block to appropriate depth do just fine? Sure, for hundreds and hundreds of years that was the only way it could be done and still is a lot today. The only time I machine anything to do with smithing is if I need something to really be precise or if it something that will really save me a lot of time by machining it rather then forge it and I'm pressed for time, but that's just me. welder19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 We normally make hot sets, cold sets and the like from something like K1070 4340 or 4140, in order of preferance. After forging we will normalise then reheat, quench and then run the colours down to a brown on the blade. Swages flatters fullers are normally made from 1045, which we normally just leave as forged or at the most normalise. Most of our stamping dies used under hammers or presses are 4317 (En36A, 17cnm06) which we quench in water from about 1000 deg no tempering needed. Basically all our swages are made by forging a bar into the heated block, if we want to get real technical we will make a half round "sinker" to preform the swages then use a full round to finish. Make sure when you do your finish heat on your swages that you turn the bar between blows otherwise the bar deforms and you end up with swages that are not round. When the swages have cooled they will need grinding up, take all the sharp edges off, in the best swages the hole is more elipical when viewed from the end. Have fun Phil Thats a hammer boy, not a toy, hit it don't play with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandomaniac Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 Wowza...that was REALLY helpful info. I definitely appreciate it! I have some pieces of 4340. The other flavors might be harder to come by, but at least now I know what to be keeping my eye out for. Would the 4340 'work' for the 1045 or 4317? Seems I will bet hot on the trail (pun intended) of forging as opposed to milling. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Wowza...that was REALLY helpful info. I definitely appreciate it! I have some pieces of 4340. The other flavors might be harder to come by, but at least now I know what to be keeping my eye out for. Would the 4340 'work' for the 1045 or 4317? Seems I will bet hot on the trail (pun intended) of forging as opposed to milling. Thanks again! I got some 4340 from Grant (nakedanvil) I really like what it does for me in terms of tool-making. I would now seek it out over other steels for general tool-work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandomaniac Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Mark, Have you experience with using S7 for tools? Found source for it as well as H13. Pondering what would make good dies (top and bottom) for power hammer that is 'under construction'. I know....I know....I tend to tilt at windmills. What can I say???? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I have a lot of S7 in the form of Jack Hammer bits. It works well in thick sections, but is a pill to forge even hot. Good for a die that will take a lot of beating. Punches and drifts, acorn swages, power hammer swages it is good for. I have been very disappointed in it as a hot cut. I don't think it works real well in thin sections. H 13 is hard to forge to shape. I have done it but I lost a couple of inches the first time I tried it because of the wrong temp. ( My eye and the color chart did not agree!) It makes wonderful thin chisels for carving , marking and so forth. If you are going to make a lot of wizard heads, dragons, etc. and want a sharp chisel that will peel a 1/16 thick wisker off that is what you want. S 7, IMHO, is great or tools used in thick sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Mark, Have you experience with using S7 for tools? Found source for it as well as H13. Pondering what would make good dies (top and bottom) for power hammer that is 'under construction'. I know....I know....I tend to tilt at windmills. What can I say???? ;-) I personally would opt for a 4140 or 4340 material - only because it is in my very narrow range of understanding. I don't think H13 is particularly suitable... an 'S' series may be but that is above my pay-scale. You might post this as a separate question on the forum and try and get Grant (nakedanvil) to post a comment. He has some experience in this area. I would use a topic like 'Nakedanvil don't read this!":D That should get his attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I don't know, Mark. Grant will probably follow instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandomaniac Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hehehehehe......you guys are too much. :cool: I am beginning to find myself sinking as I tried to put my toe in the metallurgical waters. The more I try to investigate, the more confused I get. Started out as a simple "get the right steel, make some tools and dies, and have at it". Not quite that easy! Had planned on welding different dies to flat plates to interchange on a power hammer (yet to be completed I might add) Turns out as I wade through data sheets, the steels that seem like good candidates for dies (like the 4340 I have) are not welding friendly. I have seen pics of power hammers with such dies, so figured it must be possible. At this point, I am left wondering if I should just weld up a few blocks of junkyard steel, forget about this alchemy called heat treating, and just see what comes! Nah.....I'll keep stumbling through a while longer. Might be able to figure something out. I have to say......this forum is a pretty special resource for crazies like me. The depth and breadth of knowledge and the willingness to share can't be beat. Might even poke at Grant! (does he bite?) Thanks again folks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think it comes down to elastic and plastic deformation and tensile strength. At what point will the steel die move and recover vs moving and not recovering or worst yet yield and shear - resulting in a chipped die. It will be worth doing your homework for this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Mandomaniac: Thanks for the PM. Now I understand better what you want to do, just make hammer dies for you hammer-a-buildin'. ALL steels are "weldable" in my experience, given the right conditions. We have to deal with two things in welding: the thermal stresses caused by the shrinkage of the weld from a higher temperature than the parent metal and any transformation that the weld causes in heat treatable materials. Fortunately both have the same cure - PREHEAT! I've successfully welded many high alloy steels including A-2 air hardening tool steel. The degree of preheat depends on the material and whether it is is heat treated or will be heat treated after. If the material has already been heat treated we are limited to the draw temperature that was used. The "heat affected zone" (HAZ) will still be raised to a higher temperature, but we can deal with that. If the tool is to be heat treated after welding we can use a much higher preheat, even dull red! The HAZ will have been raised to above hardening temperature and thus should be treated as hardened steel. Slow cooling after welding has some benefit, but it really needs to be "drawn" after it cools to room temperature. The un-heat treated part should be normalized before heating for quenching. The pre-heat introduces less thermal stress because both the weld and the parent metal are cooling together. It also reduces the hardening in the HAZ. If you weld heat treatable material cold, the material adjacent to the weld is heated above hardening temperature and the heat is "sucked" out by the mass of the part, a very extreme quench that causes intense hardening that often cracks sponteaniously. Pre-heat reduces this, but does not eliminate it. The part is hardened and must be drawn or normalized after cooling. If you understand what is going on it is much easier to deal with it. You want to understand "what" to do, but more importantly "why". Edit: I do all of the above welding with Lo-Hi rod, anything from 7018 to 12018. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandomaniac Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 Thanks Grant, This info is indeed what I needed. I definitely agree.....knowing the 'why' makes the 'what to do' fall into place. Will try to have at it and see if I can make some serviceable tooling. I appreciate everyone's help. Hope I have not worn out my welcome....I feel sure I will have plenty of questions as I stumble my way along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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