Rick Rowlands Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I toured the recently restored 1864 Cambria Iron Works blacksmith shop in Johnstown, PA last week. The Johnstown Area Redevelopment Authority has ben searching for a tenant for this building that would return it to use as a blacksmith shop. The structure is a National Historic Landmark and the authority wants to see it returned to use as a place where metals are worked. They have been marketing the building but so far no takers. The building consists of four sections. The center section is six sided and contains three Chambersburg hammers. A rear bay houses a 10 ton William Sellers hammer and yet another bay contains a forge and a smaller steam hammer. The building has numerous jib cranes, forges and heating furnaces. This may seem like a crazy idea, but would there be enough blacksmiths in the central part of Pennsylvania that would be interested in using this space as a joint facility? I think this would be a great opportunity to utilize perhaps one of the most historically significant and unique blacksmith shops in the country. Perhaps an organization could be formed (or a chapter of ABANA) which would rent the facility and make it available to its membership. The shop could then become sort of a living history exhibit that could tie into the other heritage preservation efforts in the Johnstown area. If anyone would like to explore this option please lets discuss it here. If enough interest could be found I'll be the point man and initiate discussions with the owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Rowlands Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Rowlands Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 For more drawings and photos of the shop when it was in operation go to:Historic American Buildings Survey/Historic American Engineering Record/Historic American Landscapes Survey (HABS/HAER) (American Memory from the Library of Congress) Search for "Cambria Iron Blacksmith". It should be the first result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Several thoughts: 1) Please indicate in your profile where you are located so we can provide responses that are more tailored to your location. 2) There are three Johnstowns in Pennsylvania, please indicate which one in which the building resides: - Johnstown, PA, Cambria County - Johnstown, PA, Lebanon County - Johnstown, PA, Union County Yes I realize that Cambria County is the most logical and likely, but I would prefer not to assume. 3) The facility looks formidably expensive, do they have a figure in mind that a small blacksmith guild could afford? 4) Would the county or the Johnstown Area Redevelopment Authority be willing to incorporate the location as a county museum and provide space to a blacksmith guild in *exchange* for staffing the location for tourists on weekends? Dave E. :D Edited July 27, 2009 by UnicornForge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drako11 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 WOW!!! I wish I lived in PA.....that place is amazing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 WOW!!! i say too - what an amazing building! the photos on the other site look great - what a beautiful building - would be fabulous full of smiths again.. the sort of thing there should be funding for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Apparently the shop is in the west near Pittsburgh in Cambria County, PA as their web site History of the Cambria Blacksmith Shop shows an address of: Johnstown PA 15901 Unfortunately that location is at least 3 hours 35 minutes at a distance of : 167.34 miles from where I live, not an easy commute and just too far for me on more than a rare visit. Their web site shows plans to have blacksmiths rent the site and also have those smiths provide access to the shop for tourists to watch them work: Plans for the Blacksmith Shop at Johnstown rental and tourists Sounds like the preservation society "wants their cake and to eat it too", that is to charge rent and also get free site for tourists. As their site says. "leased by an independent business that will resume forging operations and allow visitors to the shop to experience over 142 years of metalworking tradition". Unless they are asking an *extremely* low rent, or can rent to a non-profit blacksmith guild (check with the Pittsburgh Area Artist-Blacksmiths Association), I would be extremely surprised if they could get commercially operating smith(s) to reside there under those conditions. I can see them being insured and operated as a museum, but not as a commercial blacksmith shop with visitors. I could be wrong, as I often am. But I don't think I am. I gather that the reason that they have been "marketing" the location without takers is that their rent and conditions are not in line with what any smith or group of smiths can afford. ** Bottom Line ** If they want to staff the site, they will likely have to establish the location as a museum and ask for a blacksmith guild to provide volunteers. PITTSBURGH AREA ARTIST-BLACKSMITHS ASSOCIATION - According to ABANA web site: ****Pres: John W. Steel 2063 Lovi Road Freedom, PA 15042 (724) 774-6757steeljw@comcast.net **** Ed: Chris Holt 1630 Camp Meeting Rd. Sewickley, PA 15143 (412) 741-6171paabasec@comcast.net Edited July 27, 2009 by UnicornForge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Rowlands Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 I am not affiliated with the JAHA, but am a steel industry preservationist from Youngstown, OH. I visited the shop last week and after being told be a JAHA representative what they wanted to do with the building I thought that I would attempt to develop a few ideas. I have asked for additional information regarding rent, utilities etc. and am awaiting a reply. I'll post what I learn to this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Yes, I would be interested in hearing more about what they would want to charge to rent a 11,000 square foot facility. lol I would also like to hear more about the plans to have tourists walking around a operational metalworking facility with operational power hammers of up to 10,000 pounds. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Creek Blacksmith Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 It is a nice building but the cost of operating it would be a burden to anyone. There is a reason why it's standing empty. Yes there is something special in working in an old blacksmith shop, I work in a 1865 shop at Fair time and a couple of other times during the year. Two years ago we had to replace one of the forges and if the brick wasn't donated it still would not be done. I agree with UnicornForge sounds like they want the cake and eat to. Keep us posted if it gets up and running it be a nice place to visit, a little weekend trip for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Rowlands Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 UnicornForge, Yes I agree with you that finding a for profit business to operate the shop would be quite a stretch, as the limitations placed upon such a business in operating in such an oddly built and historic structure, with the stipulation that visitors would be there to constantly get in the way would drive anyone away. What I see as the highest and best use for that building now would be a combination of living history museum and workshop space for individual blacksmiths. Are you familiar with the metal arts program at Sloss Furnaces? Why Metal Art The blacksmith shop would be an ideal location to institute such a program which would have the potential of drawing participants from all over Pennsylvania and perhaps surrounding states. The rent would have to be nominal, and there would probably have to be some additional government investment to get it going namely in extension of utilities. At this point I am just brainstorming, I've yet to discuss any of this with the JAHA to find out what they would think of such an idea. This could go nowhere, or maybe could turn into something. Since their website was created a couple of years ago, and with the downturn in the economy perhaps their notions about this building have changed and they would be willing to discuss an idea utilizing the shop as a museum/shared workshop space. If anyone else has any insight please chime in. I've heard that several blacksmiths have discussed this building at length a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzom Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 UnicornForge, Looks like you live by me I live in Ephrata, but my family is from Pittsburgh so I make that miserable trip on I76 pretty often I'll have to check that place out one of my trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Rick Rowlands, I could be wrong, but I suspect from looking at the Sloss Furnaces web site that you provided, that you probably don't quite understand where the interests of the participants on this web discussion forum are focused. We tend to hammer hot metal, and our groups are organized and incorporated as affiliates of ABANA. Within driving distance from my home are about six or more historic museum sites that are supported by local ABANA (for The Artist Blacksmith's Association of North America, Inc. web site - click here) affiliated blacksmithing groups through providing volunteers to demonstrate in those museum historical blacksmith shops. An example is the Blacksmith Guild of Central Maryland [bBCM]- (click here) which provides volunteers to demonstrate in the historic shop at the Carroll County Farm Museum - (click here). The arrangement between the museums and the blacksmith groups, as far as my humble understanding extends, is one where the blacksmiths do not pay rent, or utilities. In exchange for the services of the smiths at these museums, the museum hosts the group's meetings and provides space for instruction in blacksmithing, at the monthly meetings and/or formal classes, (click here for Classes and Schedule of Classes offered by BGCM ). What the various groups don't do, according to my humble understanding is: - pay rent - pay utilities - provide funding to start or run museums - participate in the running of museums - serve any role in establishing a museum, or fundraising for the museum. If you are hoping for participation in organizing, starting, fundraising, and/or running a museum you likely are going to be disappointed as that does not tend to be included in our area of interest or activity. I hope this information is helpful. Dave E. Edited July 27, 2009 by UnicornForge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Rowlands Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 I understand, and thats not what I am looking for. I am the type of person who starts industrial museums and deals with the issues that you mention. At the current time I am building the Tod Engine Heritage Park in Youngstown, OH. This is my pet project and I've been working on it for fourteen years. We moved a 260 ton stationary steam engine to the site and this summer I am erecting a 44' x 60' steel building to house it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Ric, where in Youngstown is thta located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hi All We started our business off in a similar location in NSW Australia, at the workshops of the old Richmond Main Colliery in the Hunter Valley. The original idea was to have tourist groups able to come into the workshop to see a working industrial engineering forging workshop. We persevered with that notion for a few years, but we found that 1) the local council (our landlord) started to make more and more demands re insurance, safety, etc, (most of these requests were made by their people who had no industrial experience) 2) we could'nt always gaurantee to be doing something the public wanted to see at the time they came through, eg, we would be grinding up jobs, performing maintenance. 3) It got to be unnerving to be forging a large job, then stand up to see 50 school kids standing not 5 feet away watching you as someone had left the safety gate open and the public just wanders into the danger zone. 4) The provisions for having the public able to come into the shop with fences, screens, etc was not good with access to machines on either side of the shop hindered. We could not walk in a straight line from the hammer to the grinder we had to go around fences and screens. 5) It was hard to staff the workshop when we had weekend opendays, we were having to bring staff in on holidays then give them days off during the week in lue. All in all we ended up putting a stop to it, helped by the councils insurer, who felt that it was just too big a risk. We still bring in the odd small group though, but they have to be booked in beforehand, they all get inducted into our workshop, they are all issued with safety gear (glasses etc), they are met at the door by a company rep and are guided on their visit by him. To just allow people open access to a working forge shop is just a minefield of problems in my opinion (even when they are behind fences screens and barriers). Having said that it would have been a great place to see working in its heyday. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 .....We started our business off in a similar location in NSW Australia, at the workshops of the old Richmond Main Colliery in the Hunter Valley. The original idea was to have tourist groups able to come into the workshop to see a working industrial engineering forging workshop. We persevered with that notion for a few years, but we found that......All in all we ended up putting a stop to it, helped by the councils insurer, who felt that it was just too big a risk........... Phil Thank you Phil for sharing your experiences with us. I expect that your experiences illustrate what can be expected regardless of the country a shop is located. Last fall I was offered the "great opportunity" to *rent* a shop in a proposed living history village being planned near me, where the landlord would benefit not only from rents from craftsmen but also from charging tourists for admission. While at first my heart raced, but it only took about three minutes to realize and ask, how I was going to even break even on the rent, let alone the other associated expenses. I already had a rent-free shop and expected sales at his location would likely not amount to enough to cover even the rent. As you demonstrated in your posting, each of the historic forge locations have their own administrators and their own set of rules and guidelines that demonstrating smiths are expected to work within. Those guidelines are very likely to include limitation to the tools of the time period of the historic site so as to provide tourists with the flavor of what it was like in the days-of-old. To live within historic guidelines and/or to deal with tourists you are going to sacrifice the ability to do production runs or use any modern equipment. At historic sites the number one priority is that tourists are entertained in a historically correct and safe manner, the priority is not making money to support the shop or your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfb343 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Rick, I have no particular experience in setting up museums, but I do take interest both in preservation of historic sites and blacksmithing. I am about 1.5 hours from Johnstown and make frequent trips to the Blair/Cambria county area. I would participate in association/friends group. I can be contacted via private message on this forum or email with my user name @ yahoo dot com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Emig Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 There was an article in the Anvils Ring a while back about the facility. I think that it is just too big to afford to run as a professional shop. Another big problem is that it is in an economicaly depressed area-who will buy your work? I think that a museum is the only way to do that and in this economy where do you get the funding to keep it alive?? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 RIck, I follow your articles on PM with interest and vaguely recall that my brother Steve met you? I really appreciate your contributions to the preservation and understanding of old arn. Several years ago, I attended a meeting in Cambria/Youngstown with a man who had done preliminary work toward reviving the blacksmith shop as a sort of co-op. The general plan was to entice at least 4 major players to contribute seed money and set up business there. The problems far outweigh any benefits. The only blacksmiths who can afford to make that move already have established shops and client Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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