Tyler Murch Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Here's some of my tomahawks. Forged from 1" crow bar. Approx. 1060 steel. Edge quenched in canola oil tempered at about 460 F. I'm 16 years old, been smithing about a year. Axes are what inspired me to start blacksmithing. Been doing axes for 3 or 4 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Those are very good for not having done it long! What is the length overall and width of the blade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Nick, they are around 5 or 5.5 inches long. Bits measure about 2.25 inches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Excellent work! I'm doing something very similar at the moment. Will post photos when I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Smith, Tell me mo' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Tyler: Not a bad job..not a bad job at all....From the looks of it, as far as what I can tell in the photo you slit the stock for the the eye and opened it for a drift and then drifted it to shape...?? Wish the pic would come through better on my machine here... On the edge tempering...460 F is a little on the hard side for an axe if you ask me...I would go up to 500 to 525...still plenty hard to maintain a cutting edge but much less likely to chip out when thrown ...just a thought. I do mine the olde fashioned way, soft steel body, medium carbon steel edge inserted into the weld.....takes a little time but hey..it's fun... Nice job... JPH (oh to be young again...on scond thought...I am happy being on the downhill side of 100!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkdoc Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 I am both impressed and jealous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Tyler: Excellent work. you did a nice job. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Tyler, where you located ? Southeast Iowa here. Welcome aboard. Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Woody, I'm in Macon, GA JPH, Ever seen any of Dan Winkler's work? I talked to him today at the Blade Show. I thought what he does for the hawks like you make was interesting. Instead of using mild steel for the body he uses 1095. It will make a stronger weld. Mild steel will seperate and needs to be arc welded after forge welding. Dan Winkler has never had a tomahawk with a 1095 body seperate. I thought that was cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Now if you use wrought iron for the body you can literally turn two pieces into one. With mild steel you can't trust a forge weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Tyler: In all the years I have been doing this I have never had a weld seperate in a 'hawk. I have had them break cause folks did stupid things (like try to chip out concrete...what a square nut......) but a weld seperate? Not that I know of. A forge weld is not really a "weld" as most folks understand welding. Instead of "casting" using a melted rod you are actually making one piece or material. Forge welding mild steel does take a bit more practice than say using wrought iron but if you put in your dues, you will be able to make it stick every time. Just my opinion... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Well you know everybody does it different ways and gets different results. They don't like doing it one way and another guy does it that way and gets good results. Who knows. If it works, then it's the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Hey Tyler! I don't know what else to tell you, you've done a fantastic job as it is. A friend of mine who is a bladesmith, had another friend who wanted a 'hawk made from a railroad spike. He told him its made from MS and will be lousy, but the guy wanted one made from a RR spike and what are you going to do? So I piped up and said there's some tool steel in the rack, why don't you make a RR spike out of that, then make a 'hawk from the dog spike :-) and *we* did The only other thing I can think of that I did was to save the spike end, so's I can incorporate it into the final piece - is that cheating? :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 TYLER-- Just about all of the hawk makers have and do still sandwich a piece of carbon into the WI or lower carbon steels. It is easy enough to do. A lot/most of the pioneers axes/hatchets/hawks were made that way. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 Sandpile, what I'm saying is that many times a good weld can't be made with mild steel. Wrought iron, and supposedly 1095 will make a stronger weld. Many a tomahawk made with mild steel have seperated, and so must be arc welded right in front of the eye. I like that picture by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Tyler: What do you mean by "many"?? I am curious about where you got this information from. I have well over 1100+ tomahawks and axes of all sorts and styles in "service" and while like I said I have had a few of these break from misuse I have never had a weld seperate, and 95% of them were composite construction. About 15% of these are "competition" axes used in various lumberjack contests. I am not going to argue with you over this I am just wondering where you got this information because in all the time I have been doing this, well this is the first time I ever heard anything like what you are saying. JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Dr. Jim. lets consider that I have made a few knives and other edged appliances over the years. No pattern welding. I am just now getting into gassers. I have used coal for many years and have also been using charcoal a lot for the last year or so ( general blacksmithing and production work for some folks I do biz with ). Lets say that I hope I don't have any really BAd habits to un-learn when it comes to welding or pattern welding work. I would like to have one of your books to read. Which one would you suggest to start ? I don't live close to major metropolis. Southeast Iowa. Call me old fashioned but I really hate using credit over the net too ( but I can if I have to ). What I really need is educated further on hawk making and pattern welding. Thanks Steve ( Ten Hammers ) O'Grady Leprechaun Forge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Tenhammers: Get ye to your local library and look for "The Complete Bladesmith"..IF they don't have it (they might..they might not...doesn't hurt to look..) ask for an inter-library loan (and ILL..ask Thos. Powers about that as I understand he does this ona semi-regular basis...) and they will "get you the book" to check out. This one covers the basics.. "The Master Bladesmith" covers axes, spears and more "spiffy" stuff and my "The Pattern Welded Blade".. well..better read at least the first one first and get comfortable with your welding and working... Book four "The Custom Knife: Tools and Techniques for Craftsman" is NOT going to be a "starter" or a "beginner's" book. I am writing this (just about done...if Uncle Sugar will leave me alone to write...sheesh...) with the understanding that the reader already knows pretty much "journeymen level" work and is capable of same. There is all sorts of spffy stuff on finishing like hot blueing, rust bluing, slow rust browning, grip materials like "fossilizing" stag and bone, processing raw bone, grip fluting, a lot on die work for presses, and guillotine tooling, center ribs and mulitple fullers.. steel infomation..stone mounting..expanded info on the studies that my best friend, the late Bob Engnath and I did on refractory (yakiba) hardening using clays... just alot of "upgrade" stuff that is "fun to know" and helps a good, solid craftsmen "finish" a piece. More on pattern welding using powdered metals..a lot more on European composite patterns with the steeled edges... This is probably the last book I will write... So there ya go... Now if ya get a copy of the book and you have any questions...by all means ask me... If you want to buy the books..my publisher has a deal with amazon so you get a better price there than just about any place else... Take care JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 JPH, My teacher, Buster Grubbs, one of the founders of the Ocmulgee Blacksmith Guild who has been smithing for, uhhh, 20 years or there 'bouts says mild steel wrapped hawks should be arc welded after forge welding because you can't trust a weld in mild steel. He said he had some sent back to him a long time ago, and now, just to make sure, he arc welds a spot in front of the eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 DR. JIM--Thanks for letting us know where to get the best deal on your books. What a treat to be a close and working friend of BOB ENGNATH.. TYLER- Thanks-- Tell that to SF DUCK. He drew the AVATOR for me. It is one of the cartoon smiths BOB has drawn for his blacksmiths calender. Happy Fathers Day everybody. Chuck P.S. TYLER I was posting while you were..I would think BUSTER was just making sure that Novice smiths protected their dubious welds. It is not big thing, until one gets to thinking that BUSTER meant everybody.GRIN Have a gooden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Tyler: As you said everyone works different. If your "teacher" says this is how he does it and that is how it is to be done..that's fine, that is "his way" to do it and it works for him. Not everyone works the same way. What irked me is the broad statements that you made in regards to welding mild steel which simply isn't the case. If there was that much of a "problem" as you say there is...I quote: "Mild steel will seperate and needs to be arc welded after forge welding" and "With mild steel you can't trust a forge weld." These are very sweeping statements that are basically, well...not exactly correct, and I took them as somewhat confrontational when I first read them. I am sure several others on this forum felt the same way..I hope that this was not the intent. Anyway back on track.. If these steps were needed as much as you insinuate they are by your statements then we would be doing it and/or we would find a "better way" to make an axe. There are thousands of smiths that forge weld mild steel every day with no problems what so ever and have no problems doing so again and again. Granted it does take some "practice" to do, this is why I suggest to folks to learn to forge weld mild steel first, simply because if you can do that 100% of the time, then just about anything else will be "easy"... As I have said earlier, to my knowledge I have never had a weld seperate in a tomahawk/small axe/axe or anything else along those lines. I do not know, or know of Mr. Grubbs, and he can say the same in regards to me. I have met Mr Winkler, that is about it. I tend to "keep to myself" for many reasons, and I tend to try to stay in the background, as they say. I do not relish "fame or notoriety"...but I have been doing this for a little while now and have achieved a level of success that few ever will. No brag..just fact.This doesn't mean I am any better or any worse than anyone else....I am just me..take me as I am.. I try to be as open and as honest as I can when helping folks, just like everyone else on this forum...(we do kid around a lot, but that's just good natured fun amongst folks with the same interests.)... If I can do this stuff..anyone can... Now you, being 16, young and impressionable, are grabbing up as much information as you can..and that is a good thing (I know I have "been there" myself..). But a word to the wise, learn all you can from as many different sources as you can. Yes there will be "conflicts" in the information you will get. YOU will have to decide for yourself what YOU want to "go with" and what you want to disregard. As I have said many times before, there is usually more than one way to do something, but if you use Occam's razor, the simplest is usually the best way, not always the case but usually. There is, quite often, more than one "right way" to do something. You have decided to "play with the big boys" now...Good for you..You have tapped into a very solid, no non-sense/no BS source of informastion.. There are professional smiths, serious hobbiests, artists and very skilled craftsmen/women on this forum. There are individuals who are "world famous" who post here, give advise, ideas and aid as well as those just starting out. Continue on learning..learn all you can and some day in the not so distant future you will be doing things with steel and iron that you hought you would never be able to do. I know.. I was there... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Sandpile: Yeah..he and I were as close as two men could get...we been through a lot..the accident that nearly killed his son, the tragic death of my first wife..we had some real "tests"..but what a great man he was. He and his wife Stevie are Godparents to my children.. we use to get into "trouble" alot at the various shows we'd do together. we have a great time.. He was probably the best traditional scrimshander in the world..the man had talent.. And grinding?/ He was a blade grinding deamon... That man could GRIND....I actually had him starting to swing a hammer before he passed...In fact he talked me into and helped me start up Julius..when he died, well I sorta lost interest..I just got tired of seeing Julius in parts in the back of the studio and I finished him up a few months back... Bob never got his due when he was alive as far as all the wiork and effort he put into the "temperline" stuff..this is why I am publishing out notes..I know he wouldn't want this information to get lost. I owe that to him to make sure it doesn't.. My only hope is when I kick off that someone compiles all my notes (if they can read them that is...!!my handwriting is well..I am theonly one who can read it usually).into something usefull. Paw-Paw said that it would be a great diea for me to start compiling now...I miss that olde fart too... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julian Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 tyler real nice hawks, they look nice :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 Alright JPH, thanks. I guess I'll just continue swinging the hammer a lot, and see what works and what doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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