Champion Blower and Forge power hammer

[northbayforge]

Also I said I would do combo dies on that hammer and the only reason for that is because unlike a little giant the center of the tup weight is centered in the skinny of the die so working on either end has much less of a negative effect on the hammer.. and since it sounds likely this will be your primary hammer and its relatively small ( but capable ... a 65lb Champion that is well tuned will almost do the work of a run of the mill 100lb little Giant though) its sure nice to have fullering dies to quickly break down material and blend transitions..... If you have any questions Id be happy to help... I have owned two #1's and done some pretty major work on them including pouring new bearings in one....

I'm in the process of buying a #0 champion. I've been told the dies are about 2x6, pretty flat. Wondering if it would be a good idea to round half of each die to make them comboes - or am I expecting too much?

[monstermetal]

On a 35 lb hammer I would to combo dies for sure although 2 x 3 doesn't sound like much die area I thinks that's pretty big for a hammer that small. Nothing says they have to half and half either you could do 2" of fullering die and 4" of flat

[northbayforge]

Thanks for that Monstermetal. My main thing has been forging small carving knives for wood carving with a 35# air hammer that has bolt on dies. I change the dies around a lot, depending on the blades I'm making. What I have been wanting is an old style hammer (much nicer to look at!) with dedicated dies for small ornamental work (1/2 to 1 1/2 inch diameter), doing both drawing and flattening.
Anyway, I greatly appreciate your advice and will certainly be heeding a lot of things you've said in other recent posts about the champions. THANKS!

[SGropp]

Hey Jim @ Northbayforge, Glad the hammer deal is working out for you.

I've got combo dies on my 25 and 100# hammers and love 'em. I occasionally put different styles of dies on the hammers but those are usually back in for general work. I've also got a set of new combo [1/2 and 1/2 ] dies for my 200# but have never put them in , keeping flats in for swaging and top tool work

The combo dies on my 25# LG are 2''x4 ''with about 1 3/4'' fullering on the left and 2 1/4 '' flat to the right . The drawing portion is pretty sharp, about 3/4'' wide with a fairly flat top with radiused edges. The flat part of the die has a generous radius [ about 1/4''] These dies are good for quick drawing and getting close up to a necked portion on a piece. The flats are good for smoothing out and are big enough for some light top tool work although I don't use much tooling under that little hammer.

On the 100# LG I have a set of custom 3''x7'' combos with 3'' of drawing to the left and the rest flat, all well radiused. The drawing portion is to the left [open side] of the hammer so I can come in from the side to spread the work. With this proportion of drawing to flat , there is a big enough flat section dead center for using clapper tooling. In both of these sets of dies, the die is straight in plane across the top, side to side so work can be straightened across the length of the dies.

Smoothing tapers diagonally across a set of combo dies, with the fatter end of the piece at the left [ drawing side ] works really well . This goes quick after you chew it down rough straight in on the drawing side.

Some people say that combo dies put a lot of lopsided wear on the guides, this is probabily true to an extant, although I haven't seen it on my hammers. Mine are old style with the wrap around guides .The guide set up on the Champion is even better in that respect. Even so, I try to keep the work as close to center in the dies as possible.

Good luck on getting your new baby across the Channel.

[monstermetal]

Some people say that combo dies put a lot of lopsided wear on the guides, this is probabily true to an extant, although I haven't seen it on my hammers. Mine are old style with the wrap around guides .The guide set up on the Champion is even better in that respect. Even so, I try to keep the work as close to center in the dies as possible.

Good luck on getting your new baby across the Channel.

On a Champion hammer the die runs perpendicular to the guides and the die mass is always in the center of the die (unless the dies are installed out of center on the head)... Unlike a Little Giant... so working on one end of the die or the other has no side load affect on the guides.. only front and back loads which are over much greater surface area... This is one of many reason why I really like the Champion design....

[northbayforge]

Many thanks for that Steve. I was actually shying away from this small hammer, thinking that the dies would not be big enough to make combos, which is what I really want. And I like your idea of keeping the middle part of the fullering parts fairly flat. Thanks again for all the help. I'm really looking forward to having a "real" hammer!

[ThomasPowers]

Sorry I red the section on Champions in "Pounding out the Profits" but they didn't have a size/weight chart in it.

[northbayforge]

Thanks for checking that Thomas.
If anyone else out there (here) has a fairly accurate idea how much a #0 champion weighs, please let me know.

[SGropp]

Jim,

My guess that the Champion #0 weighs about 800- 100#, maybe on the lower side in that the motor and drive are separate.

[northbayforge]

Thanks for the estimate Steve. The Waldron winch is rated at 1000#. Of course the boat will get out of the way as soon as it can, so if anything happens with the lifting the hammer goes in the bay. Hope to have a tractor there for backup (on the dock)

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

So, what's the worst that can happen, huh? What, they end up with a new permanent mooring? Oh yeah, be sure to tie a heavy line on it just in case you need to retrieve it from the bay. With a buoy on the other end. Be sure to tell the dock man that you have it on good authority that it only weighs 800 pounds.

[northbayforge]

Actually, Grant, I have heard of some mourings that cost more than what I'm paying for the hammer. Wouldn't end up in quite the right place (right next to the dock). Thanks for your consoling words of wisdom!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Actually, Grant, I have heard of some mourings that cost more than what I'm paying for the hammer.

Hmm, we may be on to something here.

[northbayforge]

afraid it is not an original idea. I know of at least one other hammer that was used as a mouring, I believe on purpose. though i don't generally hesitate to use other's good ideas, i hope to leave that one alone...

[SGropp]

Jim , don't quote me on the weight, that was just a guess, but it's probably pretty close.

Andys' old 50# Little Giant ended up as a mooring for the Indian Point dock . His son found it and raised it after 30 + years underwater. It was just the frame and lower die, however.
I'd inherited the shaft, flywheel, clutch spider and bronze pitman and they're with the hammer now .Although there are stilll a lot of parts missing, maybe that hammer will work again someday.

[monstermetal]

You know I dont have any hard numbers that I would bet money by but I can tell you that my #1 weighed real close to 1600 lbs. I drove across a scale with it on my trailer and I think thats a pretty solid number. That being said I have been up close to a #0 and they are much smaller.... I wouldnt say half size but I dont think they are 3/4 size either.... My gut feeling is that if the thing will pick a thousand pounds you should be fine...... If it really worries you find someone with a Dynamometer that will let you use it during the pick... Just rig it between the hammer and the hook and it will give you a dead on weight. I have one but I am a heck of a ways away just to come grab it... But If your down near Auburn I would be happy to lend it.

[northbayforge]

Thanks monstermetal. Looks like a pretty good consensus that the #0 is probably under 1000#.

[ThomasPowers]

Take off the motor (and mount if it has the original heavy one), take off the bottom die and the top die and holder and ship them seperately. that would bring the weight down at least 200 pounds on mine, (shoot the old original motor and cast iron mount would probably be 150#0

[northbayforge]

Thanks Thomas, that might even lower the center of gravity for the boat ride

[Francis Trez Cole]

thanks for all the info I just bought a champion power hammer the first style with the double foot peddle I have a copy of the patten and the book pounding out profits do any of you hve any other documents that you would be willing to share. What was the orgional color

[ThomasPowers]

One of mine was a dark green; the other was "industrial gray" Original???

The gray I have stripped down and it seems to have been gray over a black primer/filler stuff.

[harrismetalsmith]

After a long silence here on this thread, I am getting on the ball with some of my info. This first picture is a picture of the drive setup I use to run these hammers. It is a rough shot of the setup on the #0 hammer. I am in the process of trading places with my #0 and #1. The #0 is getting moved closer to the coal forge, because I prefer it over the #1. I will post better pictures later, but this is what I have for now. The I beam, and pipe setup comes out of the base. The concrete foundation I poured the mounting bolts into it, along with a stout piece of tubing to weld the "line shaft" setup off of. The other foundation is steel, whith the I beam coming off it.
My #1 came with the original bottom mount bracket and a large pulley, off the back of the main hammer shaft. However, I modified it to run overhead clutch style. The main reasonI did this is with the motor on the bottom style, the motor pulley is usually so small, it does not allow the belt to free run when the hammer is not in use. It will burn the belt if the motor is running, but the belt is not slipping. The 3 bottom mount champion hammers I have seen all had very large wheels on the hammer shaft.
With the old overhead line shaft setup, you can let the belt have just enough slack to freely slip when the clutch is not engaged. This is how I prefer to run them, I do production smithing, and I don't want to flip a motor on and off.

[harrismetalsmith]

The first photo is of the original bronze pitman arm on my #0.




When I got the #1 the bronze arm had been cracked, with a bad repair that also cracked. I fabricated this one out of steel. The picture is pretty much self explanatory. Both steel pieces were bored out on the lathe. The bottom piece, that the spring shackle arm goes up into, was then tapped for two set screws. I turned and bored a bronze bushing for the crank pin coming off the flywheel. The broze bushing was pressed into the steel piece. An oil hole was drilled on the top. The two steel pieces were welded together. 2-1/2" round steel.

[Francis Trez Cole]

thanks for the info the more I can learn the better

[harrismetalsmith]

This picture is of the motor and line shaft setup I use to run my Champion #0. I copied this setup, and pulley configuration from a hardware smith who ran his #0 hammer like this for over 30 years. The only difference is his motor and line shaft setup mounted to his ceiling. If you are going to do this make sure there is no flex in your rafters, otherwise set it up like I did off some I beam.
The line shaft is held in place with the 2 pillow block bearings. On the hammer side there is a 4" pulley with flanges. I had to weld this pulley up, and bore it on the lathe, because i could not find a pulley like this. The motor and mid pulley are standard v belt cast iron pulleys, you can custom order them from a place like MCS or Mcmaster Carr. The motor is a 3 h.p. 1750 RPM motor. I used to run it with a 1 1/5 h.p. but I burnt it up. If you do not do production work with your hammer a 1 1/5 h.p. will be fine for a #0. I run my #1 Champion hammer with a surplus 7.5 hp motor, but a 3 or 5 hp would work well for a #1. I prefer to run the hammer with a cotton or canvas type belt, they slip best when the hammer is idling. 2" wide belt, 3 ply. hitnmiss.com sells cotton belting, the 3 ply is a good choice for this application. Make the belts to length. They are spliced with alligator type clips, again MSC or hitnmiss.com. The belt should not be loose or tight when it is around both pulleys when you put the belt pin clip in. You might have to experiment to get the tension right. I make them so they are just snug, but will slip when idiling. The whole idea with this type of setup is that the belt slips when the hammer is not working, and then when the treadle is pressed the clutch slowly engages. This is the simplest and easiest type hammer clutch to work. I had one hammer set with the line shaft pulley closer to the main hammer pulley. It did not work as smoothly, as here where the pulley is slightly higher. Center to center these pulleys are about 30". You could go 20" or so, but I feel the clutch is a bit more natural at 30". Basically this is a line shaft mock up.
I forgot to measure the other two cast iron pulleys, I will update this post from the shop soon. I think the one on the line shaft is 7-1/2" diameter, and the motor is about 4-1/2".
Hope this info helps anyone setting up a Champion.