Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver

Hey Forge master! How's it shakin'? Met you over at the machinist forum. Not having any coal around, I found plain ol' sawdust works well. We'd do about as you describe, drive the punch in till just before we knew it would stick and toss in some sawdust. One time we were puncing a rather large hole ( like 3 - 4 inch) and did this and I was driving the hammer. Well I thought I could get a couple good licks on the punch in rapid succession. You know, one blow, then bounce it off the top steam and drive it back down. Not such an unusual thing to do on a large hammer (1500 pound). Anyway, the pressure from the sawdust pushed the punch out of the whole and it rode the top die all the way up and right back down in the hole! Hammer had around a 3 foot stroke! Darndest thing I ever saw. Had to change my shorts after that one, could have been a real disaster for sure. Whenever possible I like to us a well tapered punch so it just dosen't want to stick any way. Anyone ever use a "treepan punch". That's a hollow punch that allows some metal to flow up inside, drives easier and causes less distortion. Only seems practical in sizes over 2", but i made one around 1-1/2" that worked well. Actually kinda like a hack bent around in a circle.

Until recently I thought ductile iron was just a fairly soft easily cast material. I knew it was replacing forgings for many demanding applications. But after hearing glowing reports about TFS anvils I was surprized to find out they were ductile iron. Well, I did my research and found out that ductile iron is a whole family of modern alloys with some that can be heat treated and yeild hardnesses over 60 Rockwell! Go figure!

Looks like you took your first look at it and decided it wasn't strong enough. Should be nice and stiff with the added pieces. Just strong enough is often too springy. Making it real stiff will make it a lot more fun to use. Good job! Keep us posted.

Well it really depends on the application and the size of the piece, and probably more important what ya got kickin' around the shop. If one was truly "better" then the steel companies would quit making the others. They make so many different steels because each has it's own place. Usually you move "up" because the steel you're using does not do what you want. Carbon steels have served well for hundreds (thousands?) of years. They are still made in large quantity because they serve well for many things. But over one in thick you can't get good hardness. That is usually when you switch to 4140. But when you get above two-inch thick IT won't harden well. Then we often switch to 4340. Oil quenching usuaually causes less warpage also. 4140 has been a popular steel in the forge shop because it forges well, is easy to heat treat and gives outstanding strength. I would not use it for an anvil face because in heavy sections, like an anvil, it just won't get hard enough. Learn how to heat treat and you can get results that are very near what commercial heat treaters get. Blacksmiths have been doing it for thousands of years. In fact, the heat treaters and engineers learned from us! So, which is better: peanut butter or jelly?

Looks pretty fine, nice work! If the "anvil" is a tube (as it appears) you will not be able to get much work out of it forging with any flat dies. Try hand hammering on a piece of square tube compared to an anvil. Concrete filling does not help much, you need a real chunk of iron. You're still getting a lot of bang for the buck, and having fun too.

Donnie: Doesn’t matter how hot the steel is, what matters is how hot the punch gets. If you keep it in the hole too long, it will get soft. Hmm.... sounds like a personal problem! Anyway, you need to get in rhythm: hit the punch three blows and cool in water, hit the punch three blows and cool in water. Blacksmiths have been using carbon steel tools for hundreds (thousands?) of years. Ya gotta learn to work with what ya got.

Believe it or not, Charlotte made it sound even simpler than it is. You will need a pattern, yes. But not just a wood model, it must have proper draft and most foundries will want it split and mounted on match boards to suit their system. Then you'll need a core box for the hardy hole. If you're not up to this, the foundry will be happy to do it all for you, maybe get away with $2,000.00 - 3,000.00. They will charge a premium for making only one, on the order of $3.00 - 6.00 per pound. 4140 will not get nearly hard enough in this cross-section, you'll want 8640 or maybe 4340. Now you gotta machine it, it's just a rough casting remember. And spend many hours grinding it. I't will have to be heat treated at a commercial heat treater, probably get by for 50 - 75 cents per pound. The only reason for doing all this is that NO anvil out there suits you.

Well, Frosty, I don't know. Oil does indeed "boil" and forms vapor in contact with red hot steel. I'll give you that it's not "steam". I've always believed in agitating in oil. My heat treater has a great big propellor in his oil quench tank. Agitation does expose the part to more and cooler oil. While it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, I don't understand your advise to "do NOT swirl it around". You're sure right about plunging it all the way down in the oil, you don't want to try an end quench in oil, for sure. Can you spell "fire"?

Fe: you have carbon deposits around your anvil?

Phil Patrick: Thanks for the information! I Googled it and found a lot of information. They certainly would be a good basis for a press. Thanks again!

I've used punch presses for many years in both cold and hot applications. Many of the warnings are quite true. I think they have their place, but you need to understand their uses and limitations. They are useless for general forging. They can be set up for specific operations. One that hasn't been mentioned is puncing holes! Cold and hot. Hot just increases the capacity. I've set them up for swaging operations where there is just a small reduction. I currently use one for a pointing operation. The point dies are well relieved and the work is fed in a little at a time and turned 90 degrees with each blow. I used to have dedicated machines with "V" dies for cutting and putting the bevel on chisels after forging. They are usually availible cheap and have a great deal of power in a package. Even O.S.H.A. dosen't require the same precautions when doing hot work on them. They understand you're not reaching into the work area, hot work is usually long or held with tongs. Not for everyone.

Jose Gomez: Well, that equation is of no use at all here. It applies to a constant angular velocity, like, say, a car going 60 miles per hour. It might be of value IF the ram was always going the same speed, but (we hope) the ram is accelerating as it comes down. Blows per minute and stroke will only yeild the average velocity and won't even do that very well if you don't know the dwell time at each end of the stroke. Industrial self-contained hammers (Chambersburg, Nazel, Massey etc) have a real "clinging blow" - they don't bounce right back up. The forging test is "real world" and pretty much measures (on a comparative basis) the terminal velocity and the anvil efficiency. That's really all there is, force and resistance.

Jose Gomez: Wow, I'm impressed and proud that the KA-75 did that well compared to the Bull of twice the rated weight. As many have mentioned, control IS more important IF you have enough power to do the work at hand. It's nice to be able to measure one to at least narrow your search. Most of the results are fairly close to what I would expect. It would sure be nice to have these results tabulated for reference. Grant OBTW: I've got a 150 lb KA with a 1500 lb anvil sitting in the shed (only three ever made), got me hankerin' to drag it into the shop. Hmmm....

Unkle Spike: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "The use of tongs with a Power Hammer is a MUST". Here at "Tong Central" I do like to see tongs used, of course, but I still hold the piece when I can and use tongs when I have to. Usually has more to do with the length or heat of the part than anything else. As an aside, I used to forge a lot of chisels on 5" 4340 that were around 3 - 4 feet long (these were for hydraulic hammers mounted on excavators). When the part was near done (and getting a little cold) it would often be just a little off line. It was really hard to get the operator to learn how to bang it back in line. You push it down a little so that tip of the chisel comes up off the die. Now comes the scary part: you gotta really nail it! If you try to just tap-tap-tap it down it'll flip the part across the room. After trying it that way it was a real leap of faith to get them to really hit it. They think the harder they hit it the more it will flip, right. I usually had to show them myself. The reason it works is inertia. When the hammer is traveling really fast, the part doesn't have time to flip before it's straightened. Cool xxxx indeed! Oh yeah, this was on a 1500 lb steam hammer.

Expand on what you mean by "dies" please, that covers a lot of territory. Hammer dies, spring dies, big, little? You talking hammer dies? How big? I would probably feel fine using 4140 for flat dies in a 25 lb Little Giant, But in a 4 inch cross section for a 300 + lb hammer 4140 won't harden well enough or deep enough. You get the idea. Yeah, at that price, buy all you can get!

Josh, glad to see you on board. Please be a little more specific! Ron Kinyon IS an engineer, thus what he designs IS (by definition) engineered! I would caution you that most states don't allow you to use the terms "engineer" "engineered" or "engineering" unless you are one or the work was actually done by an a licenced professional engineer. Now, of course, all us wannabe's can throw it around all we want, it's only forbidden in a professional/commercial context. Presonally I would rather hear something like "after twenty years and exaustive field testing we have settled on a system of pneumatic components that, in our experience and opinion, will give the best perfomance and reliability". Ineresting thread indeed! Grant "It's not really an optical illusion, it just looks like one"

Mark Aspery and Darryl Nelson were kind enough to make this video and post it on U-tube: YouTube - Induction Forge Show and Tell video

I gotta agree with blksmith. I've run natural gas for 30+ years, both high pressure (15psi) and low pressure (residetial pressure). I ran a pretty big slot forge on the low pressure with just 3/4 inch pipe. Grant

Note there is a small piece of ceramic in the coil to support the bar. The unit in pic 1 uses a separate output transformer with a six foot cable from the power supply. The unit I sell the most of today has the output transformer and power supply in the same box. There is a fair power loss associated with the cables.

Speed IS relative, you know. Hammers run at 30 feet pers second AND UP. 3 FPS is quite easy to work with. The flywheel at the top of the screw has a leather belt around the outside edge. The two vertical wheels run on a common shaft driven by the motor. Drive is imparted by moving the shaft and it's two wheels from right to left so that one wheel contacts the leather. Quite sensitive and controlable, I can hit a very light blow or one xxxx of a stomp.

More properly called a "Friction screw press". 'Bout a 6" stroke, has real impact not just squeeze. Doing about 3 feet per second at impact. The screw is 5 inch diameter about six inch travel per revolution.

Hi guys! I'm Grant Sarver and I've been selling a small unit for about five years now. It's 15 KW (that's about 50 amps on a 220 single phase circut) and about the size of a tower computer. It will heat about 15 inches of 1/2 inch bar in about 15 seconds! You can get a nice welding heat in 20 seconds. Coils are easily made from common 1/4 inch copper tubing. A short coil of about 2" diameter will heat a wide variety of parts. Longer heats can be had by moving the part back and forth thru the coil. Six inches from the anvil if you like! I've seen Darryl Nelson do an upset square corner on 5/8 bar in two heats with his. In my shop I went from about $250 - 300 per month in propane to where I saw about $25.00 - 30.00 per month increase in my electricity! I manufacture the OCP or Off Center brand of tongs and swages etc. Oh yeah, $2,995.00