Paul Kin

That must have been absolutely terrifying for your wife!! You should really learn the limits with your pranks Frosty But boy that would have been awful... Oh I dont minimize it... I just realize its not anything to “brag” about in comparison to yours and Thomas‘ tales. But I am no stranger to it. I turned 31 this spring and first severely injured my back at 21 or 22, cant quite remember. I just remember shovelling snow in much the same movement you described. Lift, turn, throw hard in one fluid movement. I got to mid throw and POP! Then “hmm that felt funny... HOLY ****!!!” 1 month later and I could sort of function again. Chiropractors all treated it as a hip problem. Most physios as well. I tried em all. Then, a 1.5 years ago I found a new physio. 1st appointment she identified the disk, asked me to get xrays, and she was exactly right. “Shrunken disk“ as the xray says. 2nd appointment she knew what to do and I felt 80% better. Fast forward to covid season and she had to close doors. 2 weeks in my back had an episode. Normally Id call her and she would fit me in and have me on my feet! Well no go this time. She instructed me free of charge over the phone for weeks but its not the same. For reference, I just submitted my July hours for work. 62 hours all month. Yep. My mini blacksmithing business really helped tho. Sold a couple forges, tongs, hooks... Put food on the table at least! But this past fridays physio session went really well. I hope to be able to work up to 5 hrs a day now so August should be ok. If the lifting was 50 lbs and less, Id be fine. But I run a sawmill... its rare something is less then 50 lbs! I do truly love my job, but Im starting to doubt I can keep it up. Makes me sad to think about, but what can I do. Wowsers! Sorry for the life story! Should almost rename this thread to Blacksmiths Therapy or something! Im glad getting taken out by a stray tuber healed you up! Thats a story thatll depress many a chiropractor Im sure Ive often though I need something like that, but disks dont grow back unfortunately...

Man Oh man you guys! I thought I was in bad shape with my lower back! Its 24/7 pain but a guy gets used to it. Im sure when Im 40 or 50 it will start catching up with me but a little, often debilitating, pain sounds like nothing in comparison to a TBI and diabetes... I mean that in all seriousness, I realize it sounds like sarcasm! Its not. The worst I have to worry about is bending wrong or lifting ever so slightly imperfectly. And sitting. 5 mins on a soft couch means 5 mins to stand up. But chances of me passing out, at all, are 0 to none. I have many a sleepless night as well of course. But who doesnt? Its funny you mention the water habit. Ive never been stuck in a hospital but I have the same need for water. Its not for a dry mouth for me. If I dont have water at least every hour I get nauseous. So I also pee a lot! I dont mean to be rude when I say this, but I hope I will never be able to tell the tales you guys are sharing here!

Interesting... I did not know that. But it makes sense I suppose. It doesnt take a hard hit to get knocked out, let alone killed. Yep, bikes are dangerous even when you are safe about it. I dropped bikes altogether once the family like started. The risk is not worth the reward in my opinion. But to each their own! If he had been wearing a proper helmet, hed have been a LOT better off. He was wearing an ebay beany... it shattered. Though it did likely save his life! Chainsaw are a whole new ball game. I wont even go there! But I always advise common sense before anything else there. Huh.. I also did not know that. Well Im glad you all survived! There is a lack of blacksmiths in this world and it would be awful to loose any. He will be yes. The doctors estimate is that he will be about 98% of who he was at best. He really truly got lucky. But theres still always going to be that little bit missing. But thats ok. We still have him. He has a great, calm, dog yep! Had him before the accident actually. Its fortunate the dog is so calm, my friend can only walk very short distances and very slowly. Glad you found a good home for your pup! It can be a hard thing to do. But certainly can be for the best.

Holy moly Frosty... that is insane. You truly are lucky. I really should come rub your head one day. Would only be a few hours ish drive and worth every minute for the luck that would be gained! That really makes a guy think though. Our primary heat is wood so I know my way around a saw, but it sounds like you do too. And it doesnt always take a mistake to have something happen! You were well prepared by the sounds of it, and still were seriously injured. Boy am I thankful you made it through though! I am more then willing to bet there have been many people saved from injury in the blacksmithing community from your advise. If you are ever in the Bulkley Valley in BC let me know! Theres no extra living space in our house, we spend most all our time outdoors, but we have property for camping and warm meals! And a smithy of course Its funny actually, your story is oddly similar to my best friends. He bent a mini van in half 2 years ago on his harley. He was found entirely not at fault. The van pulled a U turn right in front of him. It was August 19 and he came home about a week before Christmas. He was completely shattered. Woke up nearly a vegetable but conscious of what was going on around him. His time in the hospital was almost exactly as you described! I talked to him just about every night. He is now driving around, has an awsome girlfriend that we all really like and is mostly fully functional, though cannot stand up for very long. He has his vision 100% but does have permanent brain damage. He is still a great guy and my best friend but its hard to talk to him sometimes. Things were just so different before. Not that I love him any less, its just different ya know? Anyway! I just found the timeframe and similarity of the injuries and recovery odd. Its almost like you just wrote out his story, except a different accident. And I feel for your wife, my friend and I were an inseparable duo before grown up life started. And even then, he is still a big part of my families life. He is my boys uncle, my brother in all but blood. Hmmm maybe I should be rubbing HIS head!

Haha I try to avoid innovation wherever I can. Experimentation on the other hand is something I have no issue with. When you see me being “innovative” its likely me trying my (likely wrong) interpretation of something thats tried and true! So yes I am relieved! I am not trying to be innovative at all with this forge. I am just putting together everything Ive learned about gas forges and tailoring it to my specific needs. Also just trying to use what I have on hand Nerve damage? Does it have anything to do with blacksmithing?? If you dont mind my asking that is! I do everything I can to protect my eyes. I have safety glasses all over the place. Shop, house, truck, several at work.... I try not to tempt myself to do “that one thing quickly” without glasses. We all know how it is! Haha thank you! Try to assume a miss wording if I ask to odd a question... I always try to spell/grammar check my righting, but I have 2 toddlers soooo... you get the point. I can take a joke though so have your fun! Now about the forge, I am considering sticking with the standard T burner now... I just feel I need a lot more time to experiment and learn about NARBs before I start making them. Im only about 16 pages into your NARB thread and every page has a bit of info thats worth having, that I dont want to skip ahead. I need this forge done in the next week or 2. I dont want to just slap something together, though it probably seems to you that thats exactly what Im doing! Thing is, I have a good understanding of your T burner, especially after you guys explained in simple terms how to tune them. Its greatly improved my current forges performance. Anyways, the little ones are becoming inpatient

My keys, as Pnut’s, are on a 3” keyboard. With callus stiffened thumbs its not hard to accidentally touch a key on the opposite side of the keyboard! So if it comes to it, you very well may have to assume an amusing typo one day. Good point on the 1” wool not wanting to stand up though. I like the idea of 2 1” layers put together. Time for some experimentation I believe. I know what you mean Pnut. I only have a phone as well and it really is a pain sometimes!

Ahhh I see! But Im still somewhat young so I still can though my back tells me I must be at least 85...

Im not sure if I should feel insulted that youd think I would use wood Frosty! ha just kidding! I dont feel Im at the point I can tease Frosty so thanks Thomas

Wool Frosty! As in a chunk of 1” Durablanket. Haha sorry for the confusion!! My thought is so make an ultra lite brick of sorts. I have so much of it I dont know what to do with it all! Long story short, everyone that “definitely” would buy some, definitely did not... Even though I can match the closest forge supply stores prices, theres no shipping, and a free lesson on how to use it! Anyway, I know better for next time AND I now have a huge personal supply of Durablanket and Kastolite ! So Im ok with it. But thats what I have available to work with. And the 1.25” hard bricks that I already use for doors. As you can imagine, Id rather not buy more stuff like bricks and such

Sorry ran out of time to go over door plans. 1. Simple sliding brick doors. Easy peasy right? 2. Soak a pre cut wool door in a slurry of Kastolite. And have that in a sliding channel. May handle thermal cycling better? 3. Fabricate a set of doors to be lined similar to a forge interior. Wool with Kastolite. Either way itll have doors. Dont really need a rear door for my purposes but my understanding from Forges 101 is I sort of need one for exhaust? I seriously get more lost every time I read anything in there... all good info! I just dont take in info like that at all. Anyway, thats the plan so far! I will keep the photos coming as the build comes along!

99% are punch and drift. 4140, 5160 are my main steels (easiest to acquire locally). I do have a pile of Udenholm bandsaw blades and 1.25” 1074 bandsaw blades so forge welding would be nice to be able to achieve. But I do have a bigger 2 burner for that if need be. Oh right! I have been tossing around wool/KOL 30 doors or just sliding brick doors... I am unsure yet....

The title pretty well covers it but what it doesnt state is that Im now considering a NARB build for this forge. So lets start with specs! The body is 14.5” wide by 9” long. Itll have 3” of wool and 1/2” give or take of Kastolite 30. BUT I want a 9” floor. So the walls will be about 2” of wool. Dont worry I have a plan! The interior is pretty much an exact half circle + the wide floor so by my crude calculations its right around 250 cu/in. This would be a great candidate for a 3/4” NARB I think. Im only about 16 pages into Frostys NARB thread though so have a bit more reading to do. But I think Frostys first 7” Narb would be pretty nice in here. As you can see I was originally planning just a regular 3/4 burner in a slightly angled vertical position. But the more I read about the NARB’s the more I like them... Oh and this shape/design is something very specific to my axe making. I have built several forges this year to get to this point. So the oddly short and wide floor was not a mistake in case you were wondering . But if you guys have any design change ideas, I am open to hearing them!

Hey thats an idea... forge welding in the old wood fired/charcoal forge was easy peasy. The switch to gas is still taking some getting used to but now that I actually understand it, things should change. Everyone thats come to me has wanted to learn bladesmithing so other then damascus and axe bits, not a whole ton of welding gets done. 55gal drums hey?? There might be 1 or 6 at work I can play around with... I had no idea! This could get interesting hehe. Of course I will stand back as Ive heard implosions can be unpleasant! Boy.. I can see how jet ejectors can be addicting! Thats a lot of different uses that I never even considered. Its apparently a very widespread technology!

Haha thanks Frosty, thats one way to look at it forsure! But ya a live leason beats all. I have gotten people to forge things, in 1 day, that took me the first few years of book learning to do. Well then... I will scrap those thoughts from my mind! Ok so I looked up jet ejectors, wow!! I went over dozens of illustrations and I have to say, I feel like I have a much better understanding. I think? I see why you used the T in the orientation you chose. Thanks for the suggestion! Thats really interesting about NASA’s test chambers. I actually had no idea they did anything like that! It makes perfect sense they would of course! Ive just never looked into it before now.

Frosty, your plans are actually great and very well laid out. Im not saying Im some back country hick... but I just dont take in information through text very well! If I stood beside you and you showed me in person whats what, I would remember exactly and it would be in my brain for good. This whole time I had in my mind the flow dynamics, if you will, of those little DIY hand held sand blasters where the pressurized air comes in half way into the so called mixing tube. I figured the T burner worked like that. Creating a stronger vacuum the further the mig tip was down the tube, therefore drawing in more O2. Which now I see is exactly what it doesnt do! Thomas, cars I understand! I grew up wrenching on dirtbikes with my dad, or more bothering him while he was wrenching... But its more the mechanical aspect that I understand. Not so much the flow dynamics, though I do have a very thorough understanding of engine operation, exhaust and intake parts I will often just buy vs build. But all in all, I certainly learned something today! And it actually makes other little things “click” now. I feel like my fluxless forgewelding attempts may suddenly start working out better now. I could never seem to get a very reducing flame. But now I know why!! Thanks guys!

Though this is entirely normal for me. Often times when reading things I will not learn a single thing no matter how many times I go over it. I just dont pick up information well that way. But when I find a simple few words as possible like yours Thomas, it makes perfect sense! Im going to write it down “longer tip less O2” and keep it in the shop somewhere. Cause garenteed I will find an explanation with more detail and will mix it up again!

Ahhhh and there we have it! I have infact been completely mixed up this entire time!! uuuugh.... well now I know. Thanks Thomas! This is a game changer for me.

Well.. Im stumped... Im starting to think that I have just been getting lucky with tuning and dont actually get what I thought I was starting to sort of barely get... I forged out a quick blacksmiths knife on monday just to finish off the drying of the Kastolite and decided to tune the burner today because this one is causing a lot of scale as is. So yall seen the pics I first posted. Well I started filing back the .035 tip a little (like 1/32 - 1/16) at a time... no visible change In the flame! DISCLAIMER!! OBVIOUSLY DO NOT TRY THIS!!! So I got curious and I unscrewed the fitting holding the tip. Yes I completely understand the stupidity in this. Anyway, I pulled the tip back... and back... and back! It was just out of the T before it stopped inducing enough O2 to burn. Thats obviously the millisecond my hand on the ball valve cut the propane supply. This was all around forging psi. I dont have a gauge sorry but id guess around 10 psi. Obviously my hands were to busy to snap pics... but there was no real change in the flame. This baffles me because Ive read all these posts on tuning and lots of times it seems that when people trim to far it just wont burn! Thats not the case here. What in the world is going on here?!? So I started over with an .030 tip just to see. It was far more stable a flame at the extreme low psi, like 1/4 turn from off on my 30psi regulator, but it induces more air I would expect. I tried it up to full pressure and worked fine with no trimming. Heres photos of almost off, about 10-15 psi (middle of regulator) and full blast: But, as I dont want more oxygen and will never run that low of psi I will put the .035 tip back in I think. Im stumped as to why this thing burns so easily but seems not to change when changes are made!?

Good to know Frosty! I am going to start going over that thread again tonight. I want to start playing with that fairly soon. Post pictures of the new and improved when you get around to it! Id really like to see what you come up with! I think my next forge is going to be nearly perfect for axes and hammers (for me anyway) so I wont likely change much there, but I just like building forges haha! Haha yes yes.. I use bricks for doors Mikey. I find it to be the easiest option... It does cut the sound down as well ya.

Oh ok! I had a suspicion but didnt want to voice it as I really didnt know if that was the case. I learn so much with every new build its incredible! Ya my wife says its loud when shes in the bedroom with the windows closed about 90-100 feet away haha! The NARB made that much of a difference?!? I understand it should make a difference but if its that much... I might scrap my ideas for my next build and start playing with a NARB. Im going to go through your thread on it again when I have time to concentrate on it. One quick question though, does the 3/4” burner to 350 cu/in rule still apply for welding heat? Im really wanting to try this now!

I am really interested in your opinion on why the flame changed so much with just moving the position of the burner Mikey! My only understanding of it is that Im changing the length of the cast in flare/flame holder. So burner pushed in = more combustion in the forge maybe?? Another thing to note, noise! At full psi the noise difference is incredible!!! Were talking the difference of needing and not needing ear muffs. At 30psi and burner pushed in, its so screaming loud it sounds like your right beside a jet! Simply move the burner out 1” and it quiets down enough that you dont need ear muffs at all. Now you would never realistically run at 30 psi but it is like that at all pressures. And that, I have no explanation for...

For general purpose work I agree 100%. I really like this angle for knives though. When turned down, the cool half of the forge is great for heat treating. No worry of over heating the blade! But yes your right for a typical forge the position you suggest is better. Infact the forge Im building for my axe making is exactly like you suggest.

So to start off, I carry a small “bulk” supply of durablanket and kastolite 30 so locals have an affordable supply around. Of corse every once in a while I get the itch to build another forge.... so off the the plumbing shop I go to get the burner parts and it begins! Here is my latest venture: Super basic, bare bones gas forge. Easy for anyone to build (I like these because, like myself when I started, beginners often think its hard to build a gasser). This one has a “burner holder tube”. Makes it extremely portable I find. Now normally for this setup I have the holder tube longer so you slide the burner in till it hits and you just light er up! I was short on material this time so Ill just mark the stop spot on the burner for this one. Now whats interesting is how big of a difference it makes where the burner sits! I mean it makes sense now that I think about it cause its essentially making a longer or shorter flame holder I suppose... Now, its still burning off the “whatever it burns off as the refractory cures stuff” as this is the first full heat burn. So theres lots of orange flame of course. I dunno if its my water here or what but I find it takes a good day of work till it cleans up. But heres my results of JUST moving the burner and low, medium, and full pressure on the regulator: Now I DO NOT claim to be an expert. And I honestly do not fully understand whats going on here so maybe you guys can tell? Most of you guys have forgotten 10x what I know so Id love to hear your opinions! I just thought this was interesting and could be used as a learning experience for others! The ONLY thing changed here is burner position. Mig tip stayed the same the whole time! Also, sorry for the sideways pictures... I really dont know whats up with that...

Yes sorry! Should have been more clear, I wasnt asking anything, just pointlessly stating a useless fact for some reason.. I do that sometimes

Great! That will be a nice extra bit of info. I was just discussing forge/burner size with a friend that wants to get into it last night.