firefly

I missed his postings in the last time, and now I have to accept: sad news, even shocking, and a big loss for his family, but for this community too. In an old thread frosty once shared his idea(l) about humans, initiated by the author Robert A. Heinlein: “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” If there ever was am man meeting these criteria, it’s him. Talented in very many (and very different) ways, and always willing to share - with those willing to listen. My condolences to his family, and my sincere thanks, Mr. Frosty, for all your efforts…

Oh yes George N.M., these old books provide sometimes surprising views regarding life, way of thinking and of course working conditions of our elders. Nice to meet others, enjoying a view back in time. You are probably right and this old saying could fit better into one the mentioned spaces. Most online-communities dislike multiple/double-postings - maybe a moderator takes care, moving the whole thing to the proper place instead?

Of course davor, you're welcome. This is ancient german and sometimes a little bit confusing even for German-Talkers, so i will add a transfer to understandable German too: original text: Ein Amboß, fest und wol gehert Von keinem Streich wirdt er versehrt. Standhafftig ist er unbewegt, gleich ob in ein Feder anregt. Mann in sieht Nott und Unfahl an Also thtüt auch ein bewehrter Man, Bleibt er bestendig unverletzt All anstöß gleich einer Federn schetzt. modernized text: Ein Amboß, fest und wohl gehärtet, von keinem Streich wird er versehrt. Standhaft ist er und unbewegt, als ob ihn eine Feder anregt. Man sieht ihm Not und Unfall an das gilt auch für den bewährten Mann, er bleibt beständig unverletzt, der alle Stöße gleich einer Feder schätzt.

I remember having read repeatedly, that the nowadays well known “typical form” of an anvil with its horn is a more modern invention (british?) and has been uncommon some hundred years ago. I like reading ancient literature and saw an interesting depiction in the nearly 550 years old family register of an alderman from Nuremberg. One can see an anvil, clearly with the horn to the right side, some hammers and smithing-tools and a kind of aphorism dedicated to the books owner, contraposing “anvil” and “man”. They even mentioned the hardened condition of the anvil, so I was surprised once more about our forefathers knowledge - a sometimes highly underestimated factor. It’s written in ancient german, so I tried my best to transfer/translate the lines into somehow actual speech… “The anvil, strong and hardened well, Will not be damaged - by no stroke sturdy he is and doesn’t move as if he had been touched by a feather. Stays upright, unharmed all the time even tormented by misery and pain, exactly like a well proved man - as if he would have been touched by a feather only… In regard to the age of this book I would see that as a really nice aphorism, praising a man’s virtues as well as the blacksmith and his tool nr.1… Enjoy…

Ok, one more story: The summer in my home is relative hot. So I wear shorts in my free time. But - sudden idea - I still have to separate this piece of I-Beam, why not now? I usually take my bigsized anglegrinder for this task. Of course, a 2 kW grinder with a new 230 mm disk produces a lot of sparks. I was in a hurry, so I decided to cut the piece without the usually involved leather-apron...one cut only...easy task...The sparks bounced on my pants, but: who cares? I felt it, getting hotter every second, but: "two more inches, and I'm done." My wife, coming around the corner, yelling to me: "You're on fire!", but, as you all know, I had to finish the cut under all circumstances - "women are whiny!" After laying the grinder aside and feeling the pain, I tapped, clapped and tried to dampen the flames, with little to no success, on the very opposite: These **** shorts, made out of what wild synthetics ever, showed a behaviour like molten cheese, produced long strings wherever I touched them and my upper leg on the right side suffered a lot, especially afterwards, when I tried to separate the molten plastic fragments from the burnt skin...I count this under the experiences you only make one time to change your behaviour... By the way, Mr. Frosty: induced by your story regarding unintentionally roasted red ants I remember eating them as food in cambodia as a garnish (to roasted beef for example). They taste not bad, but the locals recommend limited consumption, they seem to work like a kind of digestive. These cambodian red, smallsized ants are a real plague everywhere, so I enjoyed their consumption as a kind of revenge.

Very interesting stories and deep insight, Mr. Frosty...seems we had more than one similar interest in our "wild days". Had a lot to with thermal energy to a various degree and in varying applications, so one could easy find a relation to the later on developing passion for pounding and forming hot steel. Good everything turned out well, I will not go further now, in particular taking in account the very different circumstances nowadays, there might be given unfavorable examples for the younger generation in today's society.

Oh Mr. Frosty - Your reaction makes me grin too... Apropos "Alps": Not only in my country, but all over "good old europe" exist many historical interesting sites. As an idea I can offer you the "Prehistoric Pile Dwellings around the Alps", an unesco world heritage, https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1363 . On the right side top on you can find my country and further on other european countries with their spots of interest. And Irondragon, you're welcome. I try to be careful bringing up old topics, because some people seem to get angry about this behaviour. But personally I like to read recent threads, even most of them, although in many cases the pics are lost and what remains is the verbal expression. In my eyes is a good part of these conversations neither obsolete nor less acccurate than the actual ones. In the very opposite I find many of even long time gone participants highly interesting and in their lines I often seem to feel their nearly urgent wish to help, to protect and prevent critical mistakes, to educate those with less experience. And exacly this highly respectable behaviour will in my opinion never become outdated. More so is our common interest one with a very long history, and even nowadays exist many ancient, but still valid procedures and rules.

How true! When I think about it nowadays, I am very grateful for our luck, for turning out a bad idea well and for meeting the guy with his behaviour: not talking too much, but acting, if required. A style, I really appreciate, the older I get, especially because one can find the very opposite easy enough... Just yesterday I had a conversation with a guy, who told me about some really bad experiences he made in the past and that he nevertheless did not obey but in the opposite even had learned something for his future. I believe this is a relly good and healthy way of thinking. And yes, I sometimes have the funny imagination of future archeologists turning around one of these found pieces, we left behind, having no idea, what's it for and developing wildest ideas about its former use...especially because the purpose, it was created for long time ago, doesn't exist any longer and is gone and forgotten... To answer your questions, we were young, "fast as lightning" and therefore didn't get stung. And: no cangaroos here, but a lot of capricorns and marmots in the alps... *g*

...“What have you all lit on fire on accident?”... Oh, I know – necromancy is kind of “unnatural” but the “mouse-story” for example cannot be told often enough – and nevertheless I believe that there is no given timeframe for learning and making experiences like that one I will talk about – happening many decades ago to an “innocent” boy: I spent my youth in an area with a lot of gravel pits around. After “harvesting” the gravel those places were left by the companies, leaving big holes several to many hundred meters wide and 10 to 20 ms deep behind. The population used them to get rid of their trash, the idea of recycling and correct disposal of different kinds of worn out consumer goods hat not taken place yet... Maybe one can imagine, how interesting these spots must have been in the eyes of a young, technically interested fellow, finding everything from furniture of every kind, old fridges, lamps, every kind of house interior and tools, old cars, toys, bikes... It was a paradise full of adventures and treasures, waiting to be explored – just by me... Me and a friend of mine saw a partly damaged car on top of a big pile of cans, metal-pieces, old furniture... This object waited for us to be further explored, under all circumstances, so we opened one of the still working cars back-doors to get in. What we found, was a big wasps-nest inside and 100s of really angry wasps, driving us away immediately. As real heroes we “had” to fight back and remebbered, that smoke is sometimes used to get rid of unwanted insects. The decision was clear: some pieces of old newspaper on the cars floor, a nearby found old slipper on top: “...this will be veeryy smoky, for sure...” so we thought... Setting the newspaper on fire, closing the door and waiting for the wasps to leave the car. But the flames inside got bigger very fast – seats on fire, roof on fire, then the outside of the car, the painting – everything on fire. Before we realized what and how it happened, the flames were exorbitant high and we had to flee away a long distance because of the enormous heat produced, climbed up the to the pits top and looked down from the rim to our failed project. My friend and I saw our former bright future come to an end: jail, working in a coal mine without light and fresh air, something like that... We stood kind of paralyzed on the upper rim of this gravel pit, in a safe distance from the fireplace, hoping for a miracle and not really an idea what to do next... A worker in one of the other gravel pits nearby had seen the enormous amount of black smoke and drove over with his really big bulldozer. He saw us standing, frightened and not knowing what to do, obviously had an idea, what might have happened and used a lot of “nice words”, better not heard/seen on a family-friendly site. Our fearful explanation – that we “only” wanted to get rid of these wasps, seemed to appease him a little bit, he grumbled something I could not understand, climbed back in his vehicle, took up one full load of gravel from the ground with his monstrous bulldozer, let it fall down the pit and covered car and whole area around totally with this one load, so that fire and smoke were gone within a split second. No car, no fire, no traces left... It was incredible, we could not believe it, were so happy and thanked our savior profusely. He didn’t talk a lot, grumbled something again, and drove away with his bulldozer back to his working area where he came from, leavin’ us alone with our guilty conscience. ...Thinking twice (minimum) before acting once has “burned in” in my brain since then...

Thank you for your opinion, "Nodody Special". To mention the negative aspects of lead is indeed a good idea - inhaling its fumes or dust - a very bad one. Many ancient artists as well as their helpers, preparing own oilpaint and using leadoxides for making their preferred "white", had no idea about the dangers and paid sometimes with their health or life, inhaling the powdery oxides-dust before mixing up with linseed-oil. And I have to confirm: the significant higher total mass of a (compact) unit - stand plus anvil - has a clearly positive effect upon stability, why it withstands harder hits with less/no noticeable movement. (This sometimes seen "adventurous" constructions come to mind, when somebody places a relative heavy anvil on a wobbly folding table - ready for use. But of course one should consider, that individual needs can differ widly, depending e.g. on particular task, workpiece, direction of blows, weight and transferred energy from hammer...) firefly

You’re welcome, Frosty, if you prefer :-) Thank you for your assessment about the lead’s properties, accordingly I might have chosen a working way for keeping the peace with my neighbors intact. Some of the lead used for my anvil’s “bed” comes from old drain pipes, the rest from a nearby handgun’s shooting range. That’s why the lead will for sure contain a certain percentage of antimony, used to make the bullets a bit harder. Theses bullets are gathered regularly, many reloaders are still using them as well as the cases from their fired cartridges – to keep the costs down and just for fun. I was able to get 160 pounds of fired bullets, already packed as raw “cakes” weighing about 40 pounds each in small wooden boxes for a reasonable price. Funny story aside: I had a friend picking up the prepared packs and delivering them to me. He had no idea about the content and couldn't understand, how these tiny boxes could be so heavy; they didn’t even move, when he first tried lifting them, using an amount of effort in regard to their size…His facial expression turned from curious to stunned, when I answered his question about the content with: "…just gold-bars, I acquired recently..." Your idea of a testing environment for anvils resp. visualizing the differences under changing conditions seems highly interesting. As the saying goes, the best ideas always come in the sleep… Visualizing complex circumstances to see hidden correlations easier has been one of my preferred tasks for a long time. Regardless of our relative weak power, the value might lie in the human nature, the wish to comprehend and to make the best out of given circumstances. Additionally, can everything we know (better) help to provide further mistakes. That’s what is driving us forward. In my experience is the highest challenge in duties like that acquiring the “correct” and “complete” raw-data. Their interpretation should only be a question of applying mathematics in a proper way. Especially anvils have been many times longer in use than most other tools, they can stay in good condition for centuries - besides massive abuse and fire, of course. I am sure, an effort like that would be highly interesting for many people and could on the other hand open a can of worms because one would find differences in various kinds and brands of anvils. Seeing the own beloved and highly trusted way of doing things underestimated and finding out, that another system gives noticeably better results, can sometimes make people behave strange. But nevertheless: A study like that, done seriously and scientifically approved, the magic words being “independent” here, could have a massive impact (Sic!) within the society of blacksmiths as well as the anvil-producers. Maybe this is done already and one of the technically experienced people within this community knows about existing studies in that area. I would like to hear… Hmm, I fear, it’s my turn now to apologize for being longwinded. Nevertheless, I enjoy this conversation so far. Have a good day, firefly

Thank you, Mr. Frost, for taking your time and sharing your experience. And please, let me first of all react to „…lurking…“ and “…taking off on a long yak…“ as a sidenote: for me it is a sad fact, that fora containing really serious content are nearly extinct meanwhile. You are certainly aware of dogmas like “...modern, fast, easy...” conquering our society on nearly all levels; there is nothing wrong with those principles per se, but I still like to take the individual circumstances in account before using one of them. On the other hand seems behavior as “listening carefully and building whole sentences within a given context” to become rare. That's why I never would see answers like yours as “long yak“, because I appreciate a form of articulation showing an effort to make the own point of view understandable for others too. In the very opposite: it is exactly this clearly visible effort – which can be found within your community since many years now – that led me to “delurking”. I only can read something about a matter touching my interest, if another one has written about it before. In return to the topic, I hope, I understood correctly, that you have not given any advices against the used construction, although it seems, that some of it might be unnecessary. What I can confirm from my experience: filling the stand’s legs with sand caused a noticeable dulling of its vibrations and sound, checked by tapping legs as well as top-plate. I gave the additional rubber-feet to avoid the transfer of vibrations down into the concrete floor. And using a massive plate of lead on top of the stand stopped the anvils resonance nearly completely and turned the former bright ringing into a somehow dull “tink” (like one is hitting a cheap Chinese ASO for example). But it was this huge effect, that made me fear, the rebound might have possibly been affected in a negative way also. If this didn’t happen, I am glad with it. In addition, should the bed of lead between stand and anvil following your argumentation cause a separation of their different resonances or even more so stop/hinder the travelling of the anvil’s resonance down into the stand? If so, it’s a good thing too. To be clear, I cannot really feel negative consequences caused by the given construction, but I never used the anvil for working without it to avoid the heavy noise, why I cannot talk about a possible difference regarding the anvil's performance. Therefore, I think I might leave everything in the given state, as long as there are no strong arguments from more experienced smiths than me against it. firefly

I own an anvil weighing about 180 pounds, good rebound of 80% to 90 %, when I use a bearing-ball for check. But: It's ringing very bright and is annoying loud. Fact is, I don't want to disturb the neighbors living around the shop more than absolutely necessary. I want to keep the actual harmony intact and so I decided to use the stand I had to build for the anvil as a possibility to dampen the sound as far as possible. As a first step I made a tripod out of heavy 6-inch tubes, about 1/2-inch strong, on top I welded a 1-inch iron-plate as a rest for the anvil, bottom side iron-plates as feet for stability on the floor. I filled the tubes with quartz-sand before welding. Additionally, I put the stand upon old rubber-pieces, cut out from a car-tire. The second idea was using lead as material between stand and anvil. The anvil is resting on a massive plate of about 160 pounds of lead, dampening the former noise in an incredible way. There is not even an idea of ringing anymore. I could imagine, that the added mass of about 240 pounds (tripod filled with sand about 80 pounds and 160 pounds of lead) might be a benefit for the anvil in more than one way: more quietness, additional stability resp. resistance against "dancing around" and hopefully more rebound especially on heavier work. I think I read that some IFI members like Mr. Frost prefer as well tripods built of Iron as anvil-stand, this practice seems to be well known. But - I also remember a description of rebound - I think it was written by Mr. Frost too - that its ultra-fast “travelling through the metal” could be dampened instead of coming fully back to the surface under certain circumstances, and I understood this as a loss of rebound. I am not sure, whether my understanding of this process is correct or not and should I therefore be concerned, because I „sacrificed rebound for the price of silence?” Or the other way round: Will I get more rebound, when there is no dampening surface under the anvil? (e.g. caulk or in this case a soft metal like lead) So, if it is advantageous to use traditional methods for silencing like chains or magnets to “keep the rebound fully intact”, please let me know. Thank you in advance, firefly

Sorry Sir, for the delay, haven't been there for a while... The knife is still in everyday-use and the "shield" is still there and of great help. Never had a problem with "bad rust". It's a nakiri mainly for vegetables, and all I do is taking care as one should with every reactive steel. (That means rinsing immediately after use and drying, not giving away in wet condition for example...) --- and honing of course, from time to time -- best, firefly

On more try to say hello, i believe to be one more in the list of victims of ifi's p.e.g (post-eating-ghost), living far beyond in the forum's underground. Maybe some words about me. I started blacksmithing recently, but know everything about it already. As my first project I did a sword recently, a magical one of course. Thank you so much for that, glenn, BP-section is great. It was not really hard to forge, ok...some little unexpected incidents, some sideeffects...not even worth mentioning...While repeating the chanting spell "STU PIDAMI" again and again my beloved wifey came out, staring at me loooong time, not saying a word, tears runnig down her cheeks. No idea why... Maybe she got smoke in her eyes? Now, she should have taken better care. Where there's smoke, there's fire - or vice versa? Later on, when I began chanting the important magical Words "O WAT TA FO OL I AM" she shouted hysterically: "You are so right, oh, how right you are!", and left our house in a hurry. Although I am absolutely sure, she has not even an idea about the secret meaning of these old, wise magical words, I am still wondering: "What's happening in my beloved wifeys brain?". And so my sword - as you can imagine under those circumstances, is not absolutely perfect...To be honest it's a xxxxxxxxxx piece of xxxx *gg* Time to be serious: I am from Austria, have many interests in various craft, am used to do everything on my own and so I want to add one more skill to that list. As far as I have read in some posts, there seems to be a strong affinity between woodworking and our hobby/profession and this might be true in my case also. I am a Newbie not only in your big community, but in blacksmithing as well. For the moment I have no useful experience to share, but i feel lucky to find a community as big as yours, generously sharing valuable knowledge with others and so have to thank for that, because I know one thing: It is never too late to learn if you listen and if you really try. Let alone Frosty's higly engaged postings, his politeness against people he doesn't know, his "melancholy" speaking about recent times and "weird", but selfmade, perfect fitting tools for exact the purpose thought for. *g*. You always could see me with a big smile, reading stories like that, from Alaska or whatever region else in the world. Probably because I am thinking in a similar way. And of course there are many more people willingly sharing their knowledge. I never ever will support obsolency, never ever will understand the high art of engineering abused only for one purpose, to make articles fail and break within a calculated time, cheating people who believe in the craftmans skills. I prefer uncommon ideas like making something very different out of something, especially if what we are using is scrap for example. I'm not native English speaking so please don't be too harsh with me if I'm sometimes unable finding the right words or missing subtile semantic differences I could easily identify in native tongue, feel free to correct errors in terminology especially. with respect, firefly