brianbrazealblacksmith

I just saw this, John. We're looking forward to it, and I look forward to meeting with all of you!

Try some other approaches than what you were taught, and then get back to me, you'll see. Better yet, Dan P, if we can make time at the IBF this August in England. We could do a little demo on this subject. I hope you will be there. It should be a good event. Alec Steele, Daniel Lea, and Daniel Riffe will be demonstrating with me, and we hope to get others up there with us if we can.

You're absolutely correct, JNewman, really small stuff is more difficult with A36. Spring and higher carbon steels weld very easily also, but something about A36 makes it tougher when it's really small. You shouldn't have mentioned the use of flux. Someone's going to have to say something about that.LOL:)

Come on Dan P. Do I really have to spell it out for you? It's just like your rocking chair illustration. I buy steel bars. A wood worker buys boards. I don't carve material away like a wood worker would, but I forge the metal to form the structural elements for any given job. If I don't take in to consideration the physical properties and the structural integrity of what I'm building, there will be consequences that I'll have to deal with, like fussing with shaping a poker, for example. If I take out the errors that can occur in a given project, it will give itself to me with no fussing.

That's funny! Getting the picture? These points are exactly why I brought this all up! The associations are teaching what not to do. A blacksmith should not start with some bar of steel and make it weaker than it started. Blacksmithing has to do with creating structural elements, just like a scroll, if it has a weak spot, it will kink.

I can't help you out there Dan P. I've never had any problems welding any of the above. Forge welding has been a part of my job since I started. That's why I brought up these last two topics. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the blacksmithing associations here in America especially when it comes to forge welding.

You can't even shape the hook part without having to put the base of the two pieces in the vice. Otherwise, it will kink where the pieces are reduced before the weld and/or spring the weld. Anybody with basic competence in smithing knows that, and would solve the problem.

No, Dan P, I don't have any books or DVD's or anything else to promote. I'm just trying to communicate with people who want to learn like myself and others on this forum. I have never seen a structurally sound weld done in this fashion, Dan P. Why don't you do a video and show us how it's can be done. Don't forget to leave out the stress tests. For anyone else that wants to prove this for yourself, just do the same set up with clay and see what it does. Metal can only do what it can do in any given circumstances.

Yes, chichi, you are correct. Dan P, I'm not sure what video you are referring to, maybe when I'm forging copper? If you're referring to the taper video that has no sound, you might want to watch it again. I'm going real slow to show how and why, and I did it in bright light so you could see the metal better. The metal was actually never black. If you had the " experience" you say you have, you would have noticed that. You seem to be a bit hostile with your comments, and this is not the first time I've noticed that, and not just towards me. Why not contribute, instead?

Ok, I think we can agree that today's metals are different from a few years back, so why are associations teaching to weld mild steel to mild steel to make tongs? The easier faster idea does not make sense to me. It seems that some think it is a goal to strive for to make the drop tong weld, and they choose tongs. Branches or any other application where you are welding the same material to another piece would seem to be a better approach to teaching people to do the drop tong weld.

Yes, Charles, wrought iron is much different from what we are using today for stock most of the time. It doesn't lend itself to certain operations as well as modern steels unless it has been refined more, so there are different approaches that you would employ when working wrought iron.

Yep, Jim Coke. And Chinobi, CBA is where I first saw this weld, also.

Exactly! And, yes, Thomas piling on is another way of adding material to a weld. Good point, Basher, a serviceable weld for the job at hand would also be part of the criteria for any weld.

Thanks, Rob! Yeah, I just don't understand the reasoning for welding mild steel to mild steel.

There were some pictures. I can try to put some up in the future, but now is not a good time. I have other things I have to do before I leave Sunday. It is simple to explain,though.there are different ways of forming scarfs. What people call, traditional scarfs which are usually upset from your structural members. There's what I call the, blob weld, where you leave parent stock and forge down your structural members. Or you could add a collar around your structural members. There are many more joints that can be done also, but let's stay with the simple branch welds for now, like the poker and leaves that you mentioned. Which ever way you choose, if you don't have an ample scarf your weld or your structural members would be compromised.

Exactly, Jeremy. Most I've seen don't usually try and weld as much material as the one in the illustration, but the results would be the same. And one piece is always beaten smaller than the other piece. It's predictable, and it's observable. Round is a better choice, arcc, but if you reduce it beyond its original dimension the same results will happen. The only way to make a sound forge weld without compromising structural integrity is to scarf amply in some way or reduce the material that is not being welded. A sound weld would pass x ray tests, also.

Sorry guys, I'm slow. By the book, means how I've seen many places start people in blacksmithing by having them do this. Any one involved with associations hopefully knows what I mean. It is a common practice here in America. Yes, there are remedies to this, and yes I think it should be stopped the way it's been presented, and yes the same thing can happen on anything that you don't have ample scarf.

Really, I'd like to see the sound one. I present a challenge to everyone out there show everyone a structurally sound poker" done by the book",so to say. I talked about this subject with many different people, and I have never seen it done. I've seen it taught and done it many times to make a point, but the results are always the same. You stick the weld, the act of hitting two pieces of the same size and dimension promotes a taper, so the grabber end of the poker kicks off of the handle end of the poker. The more you hit the more it tapers. You may weld the taper securely, but the transition from the parent stock to the taper becomes weaker than the parent stock. It will kink if stressed ,instead of bend. And the base of the taper where you need a secured weld does not have the opportunity to be struck enough so that part will peel away when put under stress. I've only used this method as a way to show why you need a sufficient scarf so you can make a true and secure weld, but I think it's worth talking about if we want to go farther in our associations and learn and share this old craft.

I understand what you're saying, HWooldridge, but I'm talking very specifically about a practice that has been introduced into most of the associations in America that have beginners,some days on their first day, do what I mentioned above, and if so, has anyone ever arrived at a sound and secure weld. Then also would follow producing a piece that is sound, secured, and not structurally compromised.

Here's another question: Has anyone ever made a secured and sound weld with the way most associations teach " beginners" here in America to make a poker by cutting or folding over 1/2" or 3/8" square stock and welding the end to form the tapered poker end?

Dan, I'm not put off. I can hold my tongue though if I offend. I do want to learn more. I am a student of blacksmith, not a teacher. When they wanted to conserve steel, welded on faces for hammers out performed just wrought iron, so ,yes, economy obviously. Now days we have cheaper sources of steel to forge hammers and such from a single piece. JNewman mentioned earlier in the post why weld on long tong reins: ease of handling.

Interesting. From my exposure to forging, what I have observed about welded on tong reins is it had more to do with using different metals that were and are available to make a better performing tong, but now people are teaching other people, who in turn teach other people, that it was and is done to expedite the forging process. Hammers and axes, for example, had steel welded with wrought iron for a reason: performance. There are some really good smiths today that do this for its historic significance and that is understandable. I do want to address other topics that I find odd that are being propagated in the blacksmithing world today, but if it ends up with name calling, I'll be silent.

You just need something big enough to throw the six pounder at, like making hammer eye drifts. I use a 3 1/2 pounder for most work, but if I can only travel with one hammer, I'd take the 4 1/2 because I can use it for everything.

I'd still forge the prerolled rein material so that they would be lighter and have more spring before or after welding them. It does not take long nor much effort to draw 3/4" to 3/8" or under, and you only need 2-3 inches to make a 10-18 inch long rein.

Yea, Todd, Black Frog!