Rhrocker

LYLE - a couple of questions for ya. When you guys were making the flower, how were the veins put in? The copper seems to thin to actually cut them in with a chisel, so I was wondering if something like a tiny wheel (think pizza cutter) might leave the mark? And also, what's the way to remove the gunk from the leaf in order to get the nice copper color? I have some Rio Grande Pickle for non-ferrous metals if that would work. Then maybe buffing? Hey, thanks for all you and Brian are doing here on Brians site, in the way of instruction and education for those of use that can't come to a class or seminar. It's really appreciated! Robert

Tommy, I've been looking for some of that (brass wrap) but haven't found any so far. I thought about buying brass or copper sheet, very thin, and having it sliced into about 3/8" pieces, and use that for wrapping around areas like you're talking about. Do you know of a source for the brass wrap?? Robert

I should have done my homework.. I went to Brians website and there in pictorial form are the answers (mostly) to my questions. Lyle I had also PM'd you about it, so I think I've found enough info to keep me busy for a bit. Heck I've already burned 1/3 of my first leaf. When they go, they go! I guess learning the forging temps of copper may be a bit important, it's sure not as hot as iron it seems.

Ah Ha! I'll buy that Rob1. Rob2

How neat! Say Brian, I really like the copper jewelry, rings, etc. Is there a book on doing those by chance? I'd sure like to include items like that into my sales, but I have to be careful and don't want to step on any toes, etc because of copying. Thanks in advance for any help! Robert

Some people here in Texas are building complete houses out of hay, still in the rectangular bales. Don't know what all is involved, they cover the inside and outside with something or other, and fasten the bales to each other. R factor is reportedly fantastic. It's treated for fire and varmits. Bill, I think you mentioned propane once. As I'm findout in another thread, be sure you're in code with your propane bottle, if they are the portable ones. There are rules against using them inside, and the fines can be bad, very bad. I have a Railroad Commission Inspector checking into all of this for me. The smaller tanks can be stored inside, but not used inside. They should be outside, with a line being brought in through the wall. Even then there are regs about how far to put the tank from the building and trees, etc. It's a mess. Danger is that (besides explosion that is) if an accident were to occur, and the fire dept or whoever determines that it's a propane code problem, then you're at the mercy of the Commission, which reportedly doesn't have much mercy. You might want to check the regs in your state as they may be differient than in Texas. Food for the ol brain there. Sounds like you're going to have a great shop! Take lots of photos for us!

I talked briefly with my RR agent and learned that: It is illegal to use propane from a bottle located inside a business or home. I guess a smithy or shed is subject to interpretation. The bottle(s) must be outside, and come through the wall then to the device (forge). This is all he could tell me for now. I told him I was interested the the actual code and code book so that I may have a copy. I asked about storing inside, and that's apparently not an issue for the smaller bottles. The big tanks thought, that's another thing. May need to have the blow-off valve vented to the outside, he's checking on that. I asked about fines. I he were to walk into a business like mine where there's a small forge that I'm using to make a living or other, what would the fine be. He'll get back to me on that also, but indicated that it could be pretty still. I'm still way away from learning what I wanted to know about this, and will stay on it until I get answers. I just don't want to be blind-sided by a govt. agency and fined whatever amount for having a bottle of propane sittin;g in my shop. He mentioned again that it's not so much getting "caught", as it is being out of code should a accident happen involving LPG because of a tank inside the building. This still leaves a grey area, but maybe we're learning something anyway. I'll keep reporting as I learn anything, and please remember, this is Texas law, so your milage blah blah blah. I'd encourage any of you to check with your RR Commission LPG agent and get the rules and regs for your area. Roabert Hensarling

Will it include the leather? Can there be any store-bought items such as rowels, swingers or jingle bobs? Is there any sort of time line discussed yet by the organizers? Heck, I'm in regardless. I've made tons and tons of spurs (well, ok, I think about 5 or 6 pair over 10 years) but I think it would be fun, especially the embellishment part. Now personally, I'm wondering if there should be two catagories, one being rasp, and the other non-rasp. Anyway, just my thinking. Looking forward to this!

Thomas, now shouldn't you be going to see the "bad movies" first, then to church second? :P

Humm...makes sense I guess. Something to think about. Thanks TM3. Robert

I sure can't help you, but I did hear a guy by the name of Joe Miller in Brasstown talking about some castable he uses that contains micro-rebar or something like that. It's SS pieces of wire mixed through the stuff, and when the refractory cracks, as it all seems to want to do, this stuff will hold together because of the micro-rebar (my term). Problem is, I don't have a clue what it's real name is, or the cost of the stuff.

ThingmakerIII, Thanks again, I have it straight now with all the info from this thread. Yes, I've had an Evenheat kiln, 18" for years that I HT and Temper knives in. Never used it for annealing so I went and took a look and sure enough, I think I can ramp it up or down. I'll play with a piece and check it w/my Rockwell and see if I can get a differintial HT. Was thinking about putting clay (satanite) on the hammer end of the S7 like we do when bringing out (well, trying to bring out) a hamon in a knife. The clay should help keep the heat off of the hammer end for a while anyway. Thanks again guys, Robert

Thanks Grandaddy Frank! I guess we're working two senerios here, anvils and tools. Most of what I want to harden/temper will be punches, slitters, chisels, and the like. I h ave 6 feet of S7 from McCarr just for the purpose (couldn't find any H13 while flitting around finding tool steel). I also have 5160, which would probably be good, and 52100, plus W2 from Senior Hanson. I got the S7 in 5/8th's" hoping that I'd just have to work with the working end, and leave the hammer end alone. Looks like that part will work fine. I'll study your post some more and try and figure out how to HT and Temp the stuff without getting the other end to much involved. I use a gasser and not coal, so that's a disadvantage here where I need to spot heat. Right off the bat I'll be forging the top 1/3rd into various shapes, so I'll see what I can do to keep the bottom 2/3rd's cool. Just can't be that hard, folks have been using S7 for a long time so I'm thinking that all of the secrets are out in the open now. Robert

Thingmaker, thanks for your input! Can you expand on the annealing part though? I understand about needing the sticks or a thermocouple to accurately determine when the right temp is hit, and it's apparently not at the non-mag point. The statement you make about not being able to use vermiculite is where I'm stumped. Would another type of medium work better, like wood ash, or are you saying that S7 can't be annealed with any of the "standard" type methods?? Thanks! Robert

For DODGE. I need to ask you something, sorry I'm getting a bit off topic, but then again, maybe not: In one of your post to this thread, you mentioned that you may have put to many layers of kao in your forge. Actually, you didn't say exactly that at all, but something along those lines. I also have one of my forges on Ellis's site, I think in the second row under Robert Hensarling. It's a neat 12 x 24 with two T-Rex's. I also built a cart to go with it, which holds some hammers and tongs. (BTW on any of Darrels forge pictures, be sure to scroll down after clicking on the picture. You may find more pictures there, but it's not mentioned to do that in the instructions. I think I have about 4 or so photos with my forge). Ok, so I got to thinking after reading your post about the over-stuffing issue, and I'm wondering if that's part of my problem. Don't get me wrong, I can get to welding temp in a hurry, usually about 15 minutes I'll be at 2,200F on my Temp DRO is about where I like to have it. But when I first built and lined the thing, I put in 3 rolls of kao, for a total of 6 inches overall in a 12" diameter pipe. My forge won't hardly work at all if I plug off one end, and even with both ends open (about 4 x 5) I get a yellowish flame out the ends, meaning rich. I've monkeyed with all the settings till I'm blue in the face, but I'm wondering if I need to re-line the thing with just 2 layers, and provide more space for the heat gases. Anyway, that's my current situation with that kiln. I'm in the process of building a blown kiln using Ellis's plumbing, and soft firebricks. I think it should be a real go getter. Robert

Still waiting for my Railroad Commission Inspector to get back with me. Just wanted you guys to know that my inquiry is still on the front burner (so to speak). I'll jog his memory a bit this coming week.

Thanks Rich, I'll add this to my list, and will probably try several of the methods. I especially like the last one of yours ) Robert

Good deal guys. Let's see though, Dablacksmith doesn't want me to get the back end of the tool hot, but Bills formula says to temper after quenching at 900 to 1000, so maybe I should disregard the notice about not getting the hammer end hot, so that I can temper the thing. Right? Wrong?

So, I've got a few lengths (36" x 5/8's" dia.) of S7, and am wanting to make up some leaf tooling as per Mark Aspery's books. Also want to start a set of "animal head chisels". What's the advice for the heat treating and tempering? Thanks in advance! Robert

Good, clean, fun and informative posts Dave, thanks very much! Enjoyed all of it. Seems you're also a fan of Daniel Boone. I have his new book and he's an amazing craftsman. Instead of using a piece of steel to make the indentation where the two screws go, he uses the ball pien end of a ball pien hammer, under his tredle hammer.. It really dresses it up. Keep it coming, lots of fun to read. Still love the Breakfast, Er Lunch, er Dinner (there we go) bells! Robert

Thomas, that's a question I was intending ask this guy also. Again, this is based on Texas law, but maybe there's someone on the forums that may be interested enough in their own state to check out their regs also. I don't know about your question, it's more for the insurance companies than the Railroad commission I think, but I will say this, that if there's a way for an insurance company to get out of paying a claim, you can bet that they'll use it generally. This question though is really one that each smith needs to be checking on themselves, in their town, State, and their own set-up. However I'll sure try and see if my guy will commit to some generalities about it. Off all the gas explosions I ever recall seeing on the news on TV, seemed to all revolve around natural gas. Occationally they'll show a mobile home with the roof gone, and the four sides laying out in the lawn like they were hinged to the floor, and those are sometimes LP, but I have no facts to back anything up with. Robert

Thanks Corin, I sure will. Also, consider something else the inspector said; You're chances of being "caught" in violation are pretty slim due to manpower shortages unless you actually have an incident/accident involving LP gas. This is where the authorities step in. The local authorities notify the officials of your state of an accident involving severe injury and/or loss of life, and/or property losses. This perks their attention, and a team is sent out to investigate and make a report. If you are found to be in violation, the fines can get real bad real fast. Now I realize that this isn't a fun and interesting post, and involves very little artistic value, but it is something that could potentially put a smith out of business and worse, meaning the fines could reach extremently high limits very quickly. Therefore, it's up to us to learn as much as we can about this potential hazzard, and correct it if possible before it destroys someones workplace, or life. More as I find out more. Robert

A bit of a follow up here. I talked to the man that inspects my building (every 3 years or so). He is with the Railroad Commission of Texas, Safety Division. I asked him questions about what is and is not allowed in a biulding, home, garage, and so forth. He took my list of questions and wanted to check them out by the book so that he didn't give any bogus info. I told him that I sure hope I wasn't red flagging my business by doing this inquiry, and he assured me I wasn't. He's going to stop in next time he's in my area and go over my situation here, and tell me if I need to make any changes. He promissed no citations! Apparently the fines can be rather stiff if you're not to code on some things, and I'm wanting to avoid that at all costs. I'll pass on the info I get from him, but keep in mind that this is a Texas LP inspector, and your state may not be a strict, or maybe it is. I did learn one thing for sure, and that's that I can't have one of my 5 gallon (40 lb?) tanks inside the building while using it. It needs to be sitting outside, with piping running through the wall. There needs to be a regulator at the tank also. I'll get more on that later on, like "what is the fine if I'm found forging inside my shop, with my propane tank saddled up besides me. To be continued, (if you want to hear it). Robert

Hey Randy I appreciate you sending the pictures, sure, send away! I understand what you're saying about the burner placement. Mine isn't going to be 100% for knives, but for doing the smaller elements to some of my fireplace screens where it doesn't make sense to use a really big forge for a leaf, etc. Again, the portability is what I like. I'm even thinking that sitting at my Say Mak (yes, I sit) making those 100's of darn grapes, I'd be better off with the small forge. Robert