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I Forge Iron

Robert Simmons

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Everything posted by Robert Simmons

  1. Ahh well I wasnt trying to xxxx anyone off or something. I was just trying to be friendly and share my thoughts. If thoughts are worthless around here unless they come from specific people or specific books then I suppose this isnt the place for me. If that is the case and people are getting all upset because I have my own thoughts then there really is no point in me posting anymore. I enjoy a great debate on the pros and cons, science and dynamics of systems. I will listen to any thoughts based in fact. I simply have a hard time with, "well it worked for me so you are wrong." Perhaps that is a character flaw that I want more substantial evidence than simple opinion. As for the burner, I was merely talking about some of the issues Reil talked about himself and the reason he didnt stop at the Reil burner and instead went on to improve the design to the mongo type burners.
  2. I saw Reil's design actually. It is based off a cross tube for the gas which is drilled to create a gas jet as a small pinhole in the tube. Furthermore it has a flat design where air flows straight through the tube rather than from the sides. I considered that but saw a couple of design problems. First of all there is no way to adjust forward and backward jet placement in the tube. Once the holes are drilled then the jet is positioned and there is pretty much no going back. This prevents tuning the flame and certainly prevents the use of MIG tips as a jet because the jet would be too far in the bell reducer. My jet tip ends right about at the end of the nipple and it looks like I need to back it off a bit. Short of redrilling a new tube location, that cant be done with the Reil. Furthermore with the jet being just a pinhole in the tube precision is very important in drilling the jet absolutely straight and the orafice can not be changed whereas with the design I used I can switch tips if one doesnt work well. Finally the gas comming out of a pinhole in the tube is going to have less forward velocity than that accelerated through the straight tube. The reason for this is turbulence. Take an old garden hose and pierce it while under pressure, you will find it will fountain not straight up in a jet but in something of a flat cone. On the other hand putting a constrictor on the end of the hose will result in a much straighter jet and flat cone. So the only way a Reil would work as well would be to use a MIG tip tapped into the cross tube so the gas can be ejected through a straight tube. Again this would place the nozzle too deeply in the reducer and there would be no way to adjust it. Another problem I had with the Reil is the straight flow through. When air comes in from the side it tends to generate turbulence and that turbulence tends to promote a more complete mix of fuel and air than a straight through design. At least that is the theory I am working on here. I could be wrong as my fluid dynamics has been learned some 15 years ago. One thing I do know is that you need to have at least as much area in the drilled ports as you do in the cross section of the largest part of the bell to achieve the same potential air flow. To choke a Reil you would need a twisting paddle type choke which means you would need the nipple anyway to mount the choke in. You would save weight on the coupling and end bush but not much. My design is easily choked with a twisting choke where the holes on the choke line up with those on the burner and twisting closes those holes. Now one way the reil design could be improved, assuming there is no advantage to side incomming airflow, would be to take the reil design and instead mount the cross tube in the nipple but not in a hole but a slot that allows the tube to be adjusted. Then you could put a flip paddle choke in the nipple or a lens type closure in the nipple. Of course the need for precision in the slots wont change. They must be absolutely 180 deg opposite and you would need to be absolutely sure the jet tube was mounted straight in the slot and not canted to one side. Then you would need three set screws for the jet to be held in place and port out the 1/8th supply nipple to take MIG tips. That would probably work and save some weight in the whole assembly. Its fun to tinker with it. I might try a cross tube design with an adjustable jet position. One think I am proud of, however, is stability. From my readings of the reil, it requires 5psi to be stable. I think that is because of the drilled orafice jet. However the design I built is stable as low as my regulator will go with gas still flowing.
  3. Oh don't forget to check all pipe junctions with soapy water for leaks before firing it up.
  4. Greetings, I have finished my burner for my new forge. This is my very first burner design and build. I decided to go with a venturi design and a constructed the burner out of black iron for the main pipes and brass fittings for the nozzle and jet.Before you go build it, please remember that I in no way take any responsibility for any injuries you might sustain. Building this is completely at your risk. That being said, comments are invited and appreciated. Instructions Purchase all parts at local plumbing stores and fuel thread converter, hose and flashback arrestor at a welding supply shop. Tap the 2" coupler for 10 - 24 screws spaced 120 degrees apart. Be slow with your tap when tapping this iron; do a bit, back out and then a bit more. Tap the 2" to 3/4" Bush for 10 - 24 screws. Install 1 1/2" brass 10 -24 screws in 2" coupler Install 1/2" brass 1- = 24 screws in the 2" to 3/4" bush Take a piece of sheet metal to use as a choke (thin but not too thin) and wrap it around the 4" nipple and cut it to fit. (not shown in pics). Note that the choke is not shown in the pics. Drill Alternating 1/2" holes, 2 up and 2 down at 1/2" intervals on the sheet metal to create a pattern. (note I did this very last and it was a mistake. If you make the same error, use thin sheet metal, wrap it and heat it slightly then hit it with a ball peen hammer to mark the holes to drill.) Bore the holes in the 4" nipple to match the choke (pin the choke with a screw or another method. The choke will rotate to change air flow. Assemble the jet and nozzle using propane rated pipe dope on all male threads. Note that you should NOT use a .025 mig tip as velocity will exceed flame front and the torch will flame out. At 0.45 you might get burn back but I didn't try. The .035 tip worked like a charm. Connect nozzle to flashback arrestor and then hose. Only use propane rated hose. Some say you dont need an arrestor with propane as risk of flashback is less. However, I personally would rather be safe than watch my house smolder in ruin. Fix burner to surface securely, locate propane cylinder some distance away. Rehearse shutdown procedure at torch and bottle. Pull the pin on fire extinguisher just in case. Pressureize the line and use gas leak detector or in a pinch soapy water to check for leaks. Light the burner with a striker. Adjust deptgh of jet to get right fuel-air mix. The burner produced a stable core flame down as low as the regulator would deliver pressure. It was probably less than 1/2 psi before it became unstable and burned back. Currently the burner burns very nicely but does have some small amount of flickering yellow flame around central flame. I am trying to figure out why. When I figure out the solution I will let you know. The bell reducer flame holder will get really hot and the burn tube will also be hot but the rest should remain cool. Assembled Annotated parts Nozzle and Jet Up Close Test fire at 2 AM. Notice flame off core flame sometimes shows flickering yellow.
  5. Coal because of its open hearth nature will radiate more heat into your work space. Gas forges must trap as much heat to maintain good operating pressure. I dont use coal and wont ever though because I have asthma, dont like black lung and am not a fan of neurotoxins in coal fumes.
  6. Well it looks like I am in the minority and it is surprising to say the least. Now dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting we mandate anything by law. God forbid the stupid idiots in washington have another reason to take away our freedom. I personally wear eye protection that blocks 99% of UV but is color neutral clear and wraps around. When Welding or forging I rarely wear more than my tig welding gloves. My stick gloves (thick as hell) are only for really problem jobs. My TIG gloves are standard miller thin gloves but offer an astonishing amount of heat protection and definitely wont shrink from heat contact. I usually wear a fire resistant long sleeve cotton shirt, steel toed boots and jeans. Heck I am playing with hot metal so im not going to be cool anyway. I have gotten used to wearing all of that and it has saved vital parts of anatomy more than once. I am going to get an apron soon. These are habits I developed while welding and I PERSONALLY would reccomend anyone new to Welding, fabricating or smithing to do the same. If you "old hands" decide not to, well you are adults of course and can make your own decisions even if I view them as foolish. No offence. I will say one thing, any glove that you wear should fit you tightly. If you have a new pair do the following before using them. Heat up an amount of water to not boiling but warm. Soak the gloves in the water for half an hour. Then pull them out, put them on and leave them on til they dry. At the end, they should fit you like ... well ... like a glove.
  7. Ok I have been trying to get tips on getting good round scrolls, mine come out a bit more irregular than I like. So I just watched a bunch of blacksmith videos on the internet and I have to say that either most of the people posting there aren't serious smiths or many serious smiths are outright crazy. Out of 10 videos I watched, 7 smiths had no gloves on, 9 had no eye protection and 3 were smithing in short sleeved shirts. That seems, well, nuts. I am new to smithing though I have been welding and fabricating for some time but I would think a lot of the safety should be the same. In fact I have been known to rebuke my 14 year old for not wearing gloves and eye protection in the shop. Its just way too easy to get seriously injured. Do you have any idea what a piece of yellow metal comming off your workpiece would do to your eye? It would boil the fluid until the eye exploded. Dont worry about the UV comming off the piece or forge, that will only take away your vision a little at a time. One hot splinter will take out an eye permanently and irreparably in seconds. When it comes to not wearing gloves, pop quiz: how long of a contact with a yellow hot piece would it take to make a third degree burn? Answer is less than a second. Yet some like to try out their scroll fit freehand? Even a piece that is black (not heated enough to see) can give you a second degree burn in seconds. Same goes for short sleeved shirts. If you cant handle working in the heat then perhaps metal work is not the hobby for you. This reminds me of silly people that ride motorcycles in flip flops and swim suits except as a metal worker I can gurantee with 100% that you WILL get something dropped on you, shot at you out of a machine such as a cutoff wheel or drill bit comming apart. Gear up folks. I maybe a newbie to smithing but this seems as obvious as walking. And if you post a vid or pic online without your gear, think of example you are setting for the youngster who says "I want to try that." That or find a good recipie for boiled eyeball, charred flesh and severed finger. Anyway sorry for the soap box but I was incredulous.
  8. I am working to build a forge and I have experimented with a few ideas on paper but havent started the construction. I figure I need to get a good burner up before I can think about the forge itself. So, to that end I have been doing some research and would like to ask some questions about burner construction. As a preface I have read most of Reil's pages on burners and gleaned a great deal of information but there are some holes in the knowledge. I am considering building a burner with an inline Jet made of a MIG tip tapped into a brass end cap which is screwed on to a brass nipple that is, in turn, hooked up to the propane tank or manifold plumbing. For the burner tube I had thought to use a 1/2" diameter 12 inch black iron nipple with a 12" to 1" bell expander on each end to get the venturi effect to pull more air into the burner. For mounting the jet injector I have a couple of ideas but haven't made up my mind. Given that I have some questions. 1) First of all, is there anything I am doing that you can think of might be dangerous or just not work? 2) Two methods of mounting the jet are to leave the back open and hold the jet in place with three set screws or to tap a hole in an end cap screwed onto a nipple between the bell reducer and the end cap and then cut 1 inch holes in the nipple to allow air in. Is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage in either idea? 3) I noticed that Reil has a Nono-mongo prototype that is entirely out of brass, wouldn't there be a problem with heat given that brass melts more easily than iron? What parts of the burner will get extremely hot? 4) Again with the nano-mongo burner, I gather the brass tube was expanded with a flare, wouldn't that weaken the pipe? If not, how much could the metal be flared out without damaging it to the point of being useless? Could the same swaging be done on black iron if heated orange or would that not be advisable? 5) When it comes to side vent holes, is there any advantage to one large 1 inch hole over several 1/2 inch holes that have the same open area as the larger hole? I am concerned about structural stability of the nipple as I cut metal off of it. 6) Is there an upper limit to the venturi reduction that I need to keep in mind or could I mate my 1/2int to 1 inch bell to a 1" to 2" bell and get more airflow? 7) If the jet tube is brass will that be a problem or will I need black iron? How hot does the jet tube get? 8) If there anything i should look out for that might cause something catastrophic like an exploding tank? 8) If I can rig the jet tube so it can be adjusted not only by centering in the tube but also by its depth in the burn tube, will that be an advantage or is it a waste of time? Thanks a bunch in advance.
  9. Greetings and Pardon the wet behind the ears, I am new to the blacksmithing and forge construction -- as well as these forums. I have been doing a great deal of research on building a forge and I have run into one question that I was hoping you all could answer for me. First, let me tell you about me. I am a Software Enginner by trade, welder and fabricator by hobby and newbie to blacksmithing. I intend to graduate up from using my OA torch to heat metal to a propane fired forge as the OA torch is a horribly inefficient way to heat and inconveninet as well. I have researched various fforge designs and it seems round is the predominant forge design for reasons of convection. However the problem is I would like to do some metal work that might be a bit wider than might fit in a round forge. So here is my thoughts on the matter. Since I will be forging in my garage in suburbia, I have to have an indoor forge. I have hordes of ventilation being that I can open the door if need be ans I also have a 10cfm fan in my roof with a large opening intake in the wall. Anyway for the reason that I will be working in the garage as well as efficiency I want to make a well insulated forge. My plan is a two Rex burner forge with 2 inches of KAO Wool on the outside and the KAO Wool encased in 1 inch of refractory cement (castable). I had thought of reversing that but I am somewhat concerned about KAOwool ceramic fibers (mesothelioma in 15 years doesnt sound fun). Finally I woudl coat the inside with a refractory coating like ITC 100. Ok now the questions: 1) I had thought about building an oval forge to maximize lateral space and yet keep down volume. Would there be any problem to doing that? Would I get poor convection? 2) I had thought of setting the burners on opposite sides of the forge near the top but placed so that they would blow along the walls in an effort to get something of a heat cyclone going. Good idea? 3) When casting the forge I have a complex design where the KAO Wool is encased by the castable, I had thought of casting the castable and then slipping the cast into the metal shell after i wrapped the castable with the KAOWool. This would make casting easier, endure I dont crush the KAO Wool, promote drying of all water and any number of benefits. So consider the cast would have a 2 inch lip on each end and the KAO Wool blanket would wrap inside that lip and the whole thing would be slid into the metal shell. After the cast is in, I would weld a lip around the edge to keep everything in place. The tolerances would be tight to insure a tight fit. Am I out of my mind or does that sound viable? 4) I will be using T-Rex burners for the forge and I was considering mounting them a bit back from the actual foge chamber, about 18 to 24 inches and then having a tube that directly intersects with the forge. To accomplish this I thought of taking oversize steel tube, lining it with 1/2 inch castable refractory and the end of the tube would allow me to mount the burner with the appropriate set screws. Good Idea or not? Thanks a bunch for your time in answering. I appreciate it. -- Robert
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