Robert Simmons

I can run it for a bit but very rich with lots of CO production. I am beginning to wonder i the altitude at 5280 feet here in denver is an issue. I dont know at this point. Maybe the gas I am using is bad and I should try another bottle.

Well I swapped out for the 1/4 inch brass tube to put the propane in the burner and it still wont work in the forge without being very touchy and spiking the carbon monoxide. Out of the forge I cant get a stable flame if I have any air on at all. If I only turn on the propane, the torch produces a four foot long yellow flame that is obviously not good. I have tried various flares and stabilizers, I have tried putting in elbows to encourage turbulent mixing, I have even tried a very long propane feed to have the two mix just at the end of the torch. Nothing is working for me. Every flame tries to detach if I use any air at all. I am intensely frustrated and frankly ready to throw in the towel. If I didnt have a nice cast forge already and 300 into this project with all the tinkering, I would have scraped this idea already. Nothing I do accomplishes the task and the venturi burners work great out of the forge and not at all in the forge. I am pretty close to saying "hell with it". I wanted to save money but I havent. And I cant justify spending hundreds now.

Ok now I have experimented with injecting the gas directly into the stream and the flame still blows off the end of the burner. Clearly nothing I do is working here and it is frustrating me to no end. On top of that the hair dryer I was using as a blower died for unknown reasons and now I don't even have something to move air. This is so frustrating because I didn't join this board or hobby to design a perfect propane jet. My goal was to actually hit metal but I dont have anything that will heat my forge. The venturi designs stop due to back pressure in the forge (and any tiny modification of the forge doors cause problems, and the blown burners i have tried will, none of them, stay lit. And this is despite using almost an identical design to the one on knifehelp site. The only difference is my blown burner is only 1 inch in diameter whereas theirs is 2 inches. However there is no way I would be able to size up to 2 inches without pouring a whole new shell. Right now I am putting propane in with a 1/8th tube. From the bottles, it goes through 1/4 inch hose then flashback arrestor (which is NOT going to come off) and then through a reducer to 1/8th and then injected into the air stream. The only remaining idea that I have is to use a 1/4 inch tube to inject the propane hoping that will slow down the gas enough so that it doesn't try to pop off the end of the torch. But I cant do that tonight as I am without an air source so another day without hitting metal. I don't know if that will work but its the only thing left that I can think of to try. Going to propane seemed like such a good idea and now down a couple hundred bucks and 2 weeks I am regretting it.

I am not converting a vneturi. Just using some of the same pipes. Not all the same, just some of them. Interesting idea. When I have at least a little cash I might check. However, I think I will just end up buying a real blower sometime. What i am thinkign aobut now is if one blower can power three burners. Hmm.

Every suggestion helps. The problem with sizing up is that the forge is cast already so that wont happen. Also empirically it should be possible to do a 1/2" blown burner as much as a 2" one if the fuel mixes properly with the air and the velocity is right. It is clear that the flame can burn, it just detaches. If it detached pure blue, I would say that the velocity is just too high but the mix is right. However, it is detaching when the flame is still yellow and I think that might mean that the mixing isnt working the way I want. That could be a function of the right angle entry of the propane rather than firing the propane right into the moving air stream as direct injection would do. So I will try the direct injection and get back to you.

in the continuing saga, the placement of elbows did not increase the mixing and still resulted in the flame detaching from the flame stabilizer. I went to a smaller flame stabilizer circle and welded the supports to the stabilizer on the bottom of the inner cylinder instead of the top of the cylinder and the flame shape looked much nicer. It might be a good idea to add the small solid rod in the middle of the two cylinders but I will play with that later. I also tried drilling a 1/2" hole in the pipe and inserting a 1/" pipe and welding it in. This caused the mixing to be better I think but didn't help at all with the detaching of the flame. Right now I am thinking the position of the propane jet will be the answer to the question. Right now the jet comes in at right angles to the air flow and I think that might be the cause of many of the problems. I am going to flip the jet to one of the long sides of the T junction and slide it further into the intersection and see if the flow improves. Man after all this I should make a blog or post or something with all I have learned through experimentation and research.

Yeah all the way down to flameout. I dont think the gas is mixing enough in the burner. The elbow idea is simply to try and make it mix more. I am also wondering if I can use a single propane inlet for two burners in the forge though with the heat I was getting on the torch one might be enough.

I would love to get one of grant's blowers and will do so when I have the spare change to do so. As it is I have to improvise with a hair dryer. So I built a blown burner with a flame stabilizer rather than a flare and I have had some fascinating results from the experience. First the construction. So I attached the hair dryer with a ton of tape to a 2" black iron pipe nipple and then attached that nipple to a bell reducer that reduces from 2" to 1". The bell reducer is attached via a close nipple to a gate valve and then that is attached via another close nipple to a T fitting. At this point I had goofed, I had the wrong size reducer for attaching the propane line but that was a happy accident really. I welded the 3/4 inch to 1/2 inch bell reducer to the top of the T junction and then attached a bushing to convert from 1/2 to 1/8 inch to the bell reducer. This allowed me to attach the 1/8th inch propane supply pipe. Next I attached the burner tube to the other end of the T and welded into that burner tube is the flame stabilizer. You can see the structure in the image below. I got the flame stabilizer design from another web site posted in this thread. When I turned it on outside the forge, I used about 2 psi of propane and opened the gate valve for the air just a bit to start. The results were dramatic to say the least. The flame burned blue but detached from the burner by about 4 inches, however the whole flame itself was probably three to four feet long with only the first 4 inches or so blue and the rest a flaming, fuel rich yellow. Clearly this is not what I wanted. Adjusting the air from nearly closed to open didnt do a heck of a lot except if I put too much air in, the flame would detach and the torch would go out. I will give the flame one thing though, it put out a hell of a lot more heat than the same venturi burner at that pressure. Putting it in the forge had similar dramatic results. I was pleased to see my forge design actually started a tornado of hot gas in the forge, however yellow flames leaping out 3 feet in front of the forge might cause a bit of a logistic problem (not to mention fire hazzard). Again, it produced a hell of a lot of heat. I had some problems keeping it on but that was probably only because I was messing around so much with the air volume. So clearly the flame burned way too rich though my CO detectector registered a constant 0 with my 1000cfm fan overhead on so it wasn't producing so much CO that it overpowerd the fan as some of the venturi designs have done. I am tring to figure out how to fix it and the only thing I can think is perhaps the fuel and air are not completely mixed when they hit the flame and that is causing the problem. I have thought I might put in a couple of elbows in the burner to increase the turbulence of the air flow and promote mixing. I dont know if that will work though. Suggestions would be appreciated.

I have been able to run it and steam it somewhat but it needs more. It has been drying since i poured it last thursday. I can only run it from a burner comming in the back door with the current venturi burners I have.

In the poured shell I have three tubes running from the side into the forge at an upward angle. The idea was hopefully to create a swirl but that might have been a bad Idea. I dont know at this point. Anything that goes through into the forge chamber might be subject to melting so I thought I might use the tubes themselves as the burner tube. The idea would be to weld 1 3/8 pipe (the size of the holes in the castable) to the side of the forge and then install the propane directly into that pipe as well as the blower. (note I want to get a real blower but I dont have the finances now). Basically I would be using the pipe as well as the cast walls of the tubes for the 3/4 ID old burners to create the actual burners. One complication might be that the end of the burners in the forge are flared slightly. I dont know if that will cause a problem or not. The whole idea of casting the flared cone where the old burners were to enter was to use that flare as flame holder and not risk melting something. I have heard others use the water type gate valves to regulate the air. Would that work for me? Would I want to avoid venturi type narrowing designs? Finally do I need to use a propane jet, such as the MIG tips I was using for venturi designs, or some other configuration? If I wanted to enlarge the holes cast in the castolyte could I use hole saws that just barely are bigger than the current holes or would that potentially crack the castolite?

Well, I think I might have the wrong pour to go with blown burners. They flame out too fast when using a hair dryer as a blower. I suppose I need to get a gate valve to control the air flow. All in all it is frustrating. I took up the hobby to hit metal, not spend 2 weeks trying to heat it. I now wonder if I shouldnt have stuck with charcoal. What good is a propane forge if one cant use it. Singed ... Frustrated.

Yeah I dont carei f one is advertising good products then that is the american way. TBH I am thinking of buying one. The question is, how loud is it ? I also have to fuel three burners for the size of forge. I have forged a 1 inch pipe in the castolite that is about 4 or 5 inches long. What I was thinking is if I can go to a blown design then I might be able to weld 1 inch pipe to the outside of the forge around the burner holes and inject the gas right into those holes and use those cast holes as the burner mixing tube itself (in addition to the pipe welded to the outside, and then I wouldn't have problems with heat melting the burner. One possible complication is that the burner holes are flared by half an inch or so where they break into the chamber. While I am at it, anyone have an idea of a good way to cut soft firebrick without spraying powder all over and being able to make a curve?

I have been trying to get atmospheric burners to work in my new cast forge, they all flame out in the forge and its getting in my nerves in the extreme. Balancing this and that and the wind and air pressure in shop since I have a top evacuation fan is getting on my nerves. It lacks simplicity and effectiveness. Any slight change in the atmosphere can sometimes blow the burners out or change their burn ratio to go yellow. There is a constant fight of venturi vs back pressure that i am sick of fighting. By closing a door or altering the size of an opening I change the pressure and sometimes put out the burners. I am thinking it is about time I go to a blown burner and simplify my life. There is just one problem. I don't have a blower. Not only do I not have a blower, i don't have $500 to spend on buying a blower. I had thought of adapting my leaf blower which has a rheostat but the problem is IT IS REALLY LOUD AND WOULD MAKE WORKING IN THE SHOP A LOUD AFFAIR. I think ya get the point. A hair dryer doesn't seem to be a great alternative either as it is also pretty loud. What I need is a blower that can work fairly quietly and yet provide the air that I need. I want the loudest thing in the shop to be my hammering. I need to get a solution soon because I haven't been hitting metal for two weeks now, instead tinkering with forges. I ditched the charcoal rig to go to propane and half of me is regretting it. -- Robert

Attached are some pics I hope you will like. The barrel was cut off by 4 1/2 inches on each side and then I put in the forms and cast. Now I have pulled the forms and am letting it cure and harden. Next will be the forge stand. The thing weighs probably 100 pounds. We will be whipping up a strong forge stand; Any sugestions for consideration? The forge is ready for three 3/4" burners. I will be welding 1 1/4 inside diameter pipe tapped for set screws to hold the burners. The castable is rated for 3000 deg and the doors will be insulating firebrick and it will all be lined with ITC100. Also I have some KAO Wool that i can use if I want to reduce the volume of the forge I can put a blanket inside over the arch to get more heat. The forge is pass through capable so that I can heat middle sections though I am going to have to find some way to cut the insulating firebrick to plug the hole and reduce horizontal volume. Finally the whole floor is 9" x 18". It should give me flexibility to do what I want. The castolyte at the top is 4.5 inches thick. The burners angl to blow sort of at the tangent to the arch and swirl around and they are angled up to reduce heat backing up into them. Flares for the burners have been cast into the castolyte so I don't have to use other flares. I will just have to get in there and clean up the cones a bit. It is a work in progress but I think it is coming along nicely. Yeah I know it is just slightly off center but nothing in life is perfect and there isnt a lot I can do about that now. Opinions?

Man I have been starting a lot of threads but I endeavor to search before doing so. I have tried to look on internet, this site and others to find how long I should let the cast refractory cure before pulling the molds out of the middle and firing the forge. I poured castolyte refractory into a 30 gallon drum creating a 4.5 inch thick roof. Prior to pouring I put in a mold in the center for what will become the work area of the forge. I dont want to pull the molds too quick and cause collapse nor do I want to pull them too late and have a bitch of a time getting them out. So I am looking for guidance on what is the right amount of time to wait. After I pull the molds what is the right time to wait before sticking a torch in and firing it? Thanks in advance.

Yeah Choking wont hep running rich. I need more air in there, not less. I had thought of blowing the forge but the problem is I cant find any blowers that dont cost a metric ton of cash. I have been looking around for plans to no avail. I think you could combine blown with venturi where you have a pipe out the back of the burner hooked to the blower but holes in the side of the pipe before the reducer to act as a venturi when the blower isnt on. Anyway, I need to solve this prob and perhaps backing off the nozzle is the ticket.

Thanks but I am sort of a DIY guy and Id still love to have a set of plans.

You may be on to something there. I did some experiments on moving the nozzle. However, I guess the question would be why the burner is only running rich inside the forge and not outside it. -- Robert

Greetings, I am currently building a Gas forge but I thought it would probably be good if I built a small solid fuel forge for the experience if nothing else. I gather that solid fuel forges heat more by conduction as the metal is in contact with the burning source where gas forges heat more by convection of hot gasses. However, coal forges are flat out of the question for me. I have asthma and hanging around coal and coke dust would do damage to my health, damage not worth a hobby. However, Charcoal is a potential option for me as it is far less dusty and easy to control. So what I wanted to know was what are the essential differences between a coal and charcoal forge in construction, capabilities, gotchas and so on. As I imagine the earliest smiths used charcoal, I assume it is possible to do a lot of smithing work with charcoal, however, I don't know the first thing about using them other than that they follow some of the same basic ideas of air injection from the bottom. Thanks in advance. -- Robert

I have been looking for plans, technical drawings or whatever I can get that would allow me to build a hand crank blower. I can cut parts in wood or wax and make casts for certain parts but what I cont have is a drawing or plan to tell me how to do it. Can anyone help me out here ? -- Robert

I have a couple of torches created, one is the reil burner with a MIG tip instead of a drilled jet. Another is a longer torch that is much heavier than I really want to use on my new forge. Since my forge is currently drying (and I gather it will have to dry for DAYS before it is useful, I put together 10 fire bricks to make a make shift forge with a 9 inch width and height and aimed the reil torch in from the back. Both torches produce no appreciable CO that my ceiling fan cant handle when out of the forge though the reil doesnt give me a good core flame. However, when I threw it in the brick forge to try it out, it spiked CO off the chart and I ended up having to use a power fan to keep the CO level down. Any ideas why this might be happening? More importantly, how can I correct it. Thanks in advance. -- Robert

I trimmed off the bottom and top 4 inches or so, leaving the ribbed section in the middle for rigidity and to hold the castolyte in place. I will post a photo when done. The work area of the forge is essentially a 9" diameter circle that has been squared up on the bottom to make an arch providing a 9" floor for hard bricks if I want. The length is 18" and there is enough for three burners and a ceramic blanket inside if I want less volume and more heat. All of the inlet pipes for the burners are cast with a half an inch flare so I dont have to use flares in the forge. The roof and side walls are 4.5 inch thick castolyte. Should be pretty impressive in heat. I think I might just use insulated fire brick for the doors though.

Look up Ron Reil's Pages on google. They will give you a TON of info to last you days of reading.

Greetings, I am casting my first forge with castolyte in a 30 gallon drum that i have converted to a forge. I made all the forms and prepared the castolyte and to my horror I found that i didnt have enough castolyte to finish the job. I can run to the store tomorrow but what i am wondering is if I can pour new castolyte on top of already dry castolyte and still have a good bond between the two pours. Thanks

Think of it like a glass of water with vegetable oil on top and trying to stuff the veg oil down and out a hole in the glass while the glass is being constantly filled with water to balance what is lost. Because it is less dense than water it will try to float and its boyancy will overcome all but the most powerful forces. CO would do the same as well as the smoke. If you had a low vent and pressurized from above, you would have a very smoky, uninhabitable shop. As you try to force all that down, the flow will be chaotic and mix the air. Some will get pushed out. If you have a coal forge and chimney, the best bet is to overpressurize the shop from an inlet in-wall fan near the ground and let the pressure assist the draft. At that point make sure other methods of escape for that air are not available except perhaps a small vent in the roof or near the roof. You want the chimney to be the exit point for the major volume but it cant be the only exit point or bad gasses will pool at the top. Putting in a smaller top vent than can handle the whole airflow means some air gets pushed out the top and some out the chimney. Although optimal air flow is low pressure shop with low air inlet, the next best thing is overpressured shop with chimney and small vent as outlet and all other outlets securely plugged.