Robert's Black Iron Pipe Burner

[Robert Simmons]

Greetings,

I have finished my burner for my new forge. This is my very first burner design and build. I decided to go with a venturi design and a constructed the burner out of black iron for the main pipes and brass fittings for the nozzle and jet.Before you go build it, please remember that I in no way take any responsibility for any injuries you might sustain. Building this is completely at your risk. That being said, comments are invited and appreciated.

Instructions

1. Purchase all parts at local plumbing stores and fuel thread converter, hose and flashback arrestor at a welding supply shop.
2. Tap the 2" coupler for 10 - 24 screws spaced 120 degrees apart. Be slow with your tap when tapping this iron; do a bit, back out and then a bit more.
3. Tap the 2" to 3/4" Bush for 10 - 24 screws.
4. Install 1 1/2" brass 10 -24 screws in 2" coupler
5. Install 1/2" brass 1- = 24 screws in the 2" to 3/4" bush
6. Take a piece of sheet metal to use as a choke (thin but not too thin) and wrap it around the 4" nipple and cut it to fit. (not shown in pics). Note that the choke is not shown in the pics.
7. Drill Alternating 1/2" holes, 2 up and 2 down at 1/2" intervals on the sheet metal to create a pattern. (note I did this very last and it was a mistake. If you make the same error, use thin sheet metal, wrap it and heat it slightly then hit it with a ball peen hammer to mark the holes to drill.)
8. Bore the holes in the 4" nipple to match the choke (pin the choke with a screw or another method. The choke will rotate to change air flow.
9. Assemble the jet and nozzle using propane rated pipe dope on all male threads. Note that you should NOT use a .025 mig tip as velocity will exceed flame front and the torch will flame out. At 0.45 you might get burn back but I didn't try. The .035 tip worked like a charm.
10. Connect nozzle to flashback arrestor and then hose. Only use propane rated hose. Some say you dont need an arrestor with propane as risk of flashback is less. However, I personally would rather be safe than watch my house smolder in ruin.
11. Fix burner to surface securely, locate propane cylinder some distance away. Rehearse shutdown procedure at torch and bottle. Pull the pin on fire extinguisher just in case.
12. Pressureize the line and use gas leak detector or in a pinch soapy water to check for leaks.
13. Light the burner with a striker.
14. Adjust deptgh of jet to get right fuel-air mix.
    

The burner produced a stable core flame down as low as the regulator would deliver pressure. It was probably less than 1/2 psi before it became unstable and burned back.

Currently the burner burns very nicely but does have some small amount of flickering yellow flame around central flame. I am trying to figure out why. When I figure out the solution I will let you know. The bell reducer flame holder will get really hot and the burn tube will also be hot but the rest should remain cool.


Assembled


Annotated parts


Nozzle and Jet Up Close


Test fire at 2 AM. Notice flame off core flame sometimes shows flickering yellow.

[Robert Simmons]

Oh don't forget to check all pipe junctions with soapy water for leaks before firing it up.

[pkrankow]

It looks like a Reil burner with extra stuff in the way...

I will give you that using the nipple and cap is easier to align than using a cross tube. Consider slotting the sides out of the nipple instead of just perforating it. With slots you can set up a rotating choke.

Yellow flame is rich. You need to either open the holes up and/or back the injector out so more air is induced.

Ron Reil's website has pictures of various flames(rich to lean), and construction detail for several different burners.

http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml

A few tweeks and you will have a forge running nicely in no time. You can probably stuff that into a pile of brick and be forging this afternoon even!

Phil

[Robert Simmons]

It looks like a Reil burner with extra stuff in the way...

I will give you that using the nipple and cap is easier to align than using a cross tube. Consider slotting the sides out of the nipple instead of just perforating it. With slots you can set up a rotating choke.

Yellow flame is rich. You need to either open the holes up and/or back the injector out so more air is induced.

Ron Reil's website has pictures of various flames(rich to lean), and construction detail for several different burners.

http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml

A few tweeks and you will have a forge running nicely in no time. You can probably stuff that into a pile of brick and be forging this afternoon even!

Phil

I saw Reil's design actually. It is based off a cross tube for the gas which is drilled to create a gas jet as a small pinhole in the tube. Furthermore it has a flat design where air flows straight through the tube rather than from the sides. I considered that but saw a couple of design problems.

First of all there is no way to adjust forward and backward jet placement in the tube. Once the holes are drilled then the jet is positioned and there is pretty much no going back. This prevents tuning the flame and certainly prevents the use of MIG tips as a jet because the jet would be too far in the bell reducer. My jet tip ends right about at the end of the nipple and it looks like I need to back it off a bit. Short of redrilling a new tube location, that cant be done with the Reil.

Furthermore with the jet being just a pinhole in the tube precision is very important in drilling the jet absolutely straight and the orafice can not be changed whereas with the design I used I can switch tips if one doesnt work well. Finally the gas comming out of a pinhole in the tube is going to have less forward velocity than that accelerated through the straight tube. The reason for this is turbulence. Take an old garden hose and pierce it while under pressure, you will find it will fountain not straight up in a jet but in something of a flat cone. On the other hand putting a constrictor on the end of the hose will result in a much straighter jet and flat cone. So the only way a Reil would work as well would be to use a MIG tip tapped into the cross tube so the gas can be ejected through a straight tube. Again this would place the nozzle too deeply in the reducer and there would be no way to adjust it.

Another problem I had with the Reil is the straight flow through. When air comes in from the side it tends to generate turbulence and that turbulence tends to promote a more complete mix of fuel and air than a straight through design. At least that is the theory I am working on here. I could be wrong as my fluid dynamics has been learned some 15 years ago. One thing I do know is that you need to have at least as much area in the drilled ports as you do in the cross section of the largest part of the bell to achieve the same potential air flow.

To choke a Reil you would need a twisting paddle type choke which means you would need the nipple anyway to mount the choke in. You would save weight on the coupling and end bush but not much. My design is easily choked with a twisting choke where the holes on the choke line up with those on the burner and twisting closes those holes.

Now one way the reil design could be improved, assuming there is no advantage to side incomming airflow, would be to take the reil design and instead mount the cross tube in the nipple but not in a hole but a slot that allows the tube to be adjusted. Then you could put a flip paddle choke in the nipple or a lens type closure in the nipple. Of course the need for precision in the slots wont change. They must be absolutely 180 deg opposite and you would need to be absolutely sure the jet tube was mounted straight in the slot and not canted to one side. Then you would need three set screws for the jet to be held in place and port out the 1/8th supply nipple to take MIG tips. That would probably work and save some weight in the whole assembly.

Its fun to tinker with it. I might try a cross tube design with an adjustable jet position.

One think I am proud of, however, is stability. From my readings of the reil, it requires 5psi to be stable. I think that is because of the drilled orafice jet. However the design I built is stable as low as my regulator will go with gas still flowing.

[ThomasPowers]

Robert; you may get some "back pressure" on your new burner as a "new" item contrasted with an old industry standard. Part of this may be fostered by how you present it; being very forceful about things I personally know are not a problem with the Reil burner as I have been using a couple for about a decade now. When you make a big fuss over something folks know by experience is not a problem it calls into doubt other claims you may make:

My Reil burner has no paddle choke on a nipple, it has a simple dish choke mounted to the cold end reducing bell. Easy to adjust even after hours of forge use and has quite fine adjustment gradient.

As pressure gauges are notoriously inaccurate in such systems; unless yours has been calibrated recently to a known standard, values should be quite suspect (as should Ron's BTW---I use a pressure gauge on my forge to get in the "same general area" and then tune by eye and ear).

Have you looked into the sidewinder burners; they might address some of your concerns with a simpler set up.

Several of your concerns don't seem to apply as the history of thousands of such burners working and tuning with no issues seems to show.

[Robert Simmons]

Ahh well I wasnt trying to xxxx anyone off or something. I was just trying to be friendly and share my thoughts. If thoughts are worthless around here unless they come from specific people or specific books then I suppose this isnt the place for me. If that is the case and people are getting all upset because I have my own thoughts then there really is no point in me posting anymore.

I enjoy a great debate on the pros and cons, science and dynamics of systems. I will listen to any thoughts based in fact. I simply have a hard time with, "well it worked for me so you are wrong." Perhaps that is a character flaw that I want more substantial evidence than simple opinion.

As for the burner, I was merely talking about some of the issues Reil talked about himself and the reason he didnt stop at the Reil burner and instead went on to improve the design to the mongo type burners.

[Marcus Hopfinger]

I think this forum is open to all sorts of viewpoints and if quite friendly...just look at the discussion on Unions in the Business Side of Blacksmithing section to see differing viewpoints discussing in a civil manner. What Thomas was pointing out is that although you intend to be friendly your posting doesn't really come across that way "First of all....Furthermore....Another problem I had...." this can be a bit off-putting wheather you mean it to be or not....especially to the veteran smiths when this is coming from a newbie. I think this thread combine with the one on safety just got you off on the wrong foot. Take a second look at how someone else might take what you have written. I think if you stick around and read through some of these discussions you will see there is a good discussion and lots of friendly humor. Hope you stick around.

[Robert Simmons]

On 7/13/2010 at 12:16 PM, Marcus Hopfinger said:

I think this forum is open to all sorts of viewpoints and if quite friendly...just look at the discussion on Unions in the Business Side of Blacksmithing section to see differing viewpoints discussing in a civil manner. What Thomas was pointing out is that although you intend to be friendly your posting doesn't really come across that way "First of all....Furthermore....Another problem I had...." this can be a bit off-putting wheather you mean it to be or not....especially to the veteran smiths when this is coming from a newbie. I think this thread combine with the one on safety just got you off on the wrong foot. Take a second look at how someone else might take what you have written. I think if you stick around and read through some of these discussions you will see there is a good discussion and lots of friendly humor. Hope you stick around.

 

I really dont see how I could have written it otherwise. How is saying

 

 

 

 

On 7/13/2010 at 12:16 PM, Marcus Hopfinger said:

"First of all....Furthermore....Another problem I had...."

 

particulary offensive or pushy? How would you have written it short of not writing it at all?

If its not written at all then what is the point of a discussion forum where one cant discuss? I am not trying to agitate anyone, just discussing things scientifically. I would NEVER presume to give advice or discount advice on smithing as I dont know jack xxxx compared to many people about that. However the design of a burner doesn't have much to do with smithing other than being one application of the burner. Now I am no albert einstein or anything but I did manage to pass my physics and fluid dynamics classes in college. I could be wrong about 5 dozen things and Id love to hear where I am wrong but scientifically and not just "yeah you suck newb" or words to that effect. If someone says, "Well Robert, actually turbulence in mixing isnt necessarily a good thing because ... " then they will have my rapt attention. I am just not very good at saying, "Worked for me, you must be wrong" especially when Reil himself in his own pages didnt stop with the cross tube open burner but progressed to a design upon which I based mine (namely the mongo). He himself identified several of the issues that I apparently xxxxxx people off talking about.

I am afraid I dont get it. I dont think I am below average inteligence but I dont get how what I have said in this thread is particularly offensive. Even in the safety thread, there were good points made on both sides and I learned some things but I dont see how that thread was offensive either. If we reach a point where we no longer question what we do on a day to day basis, then havent we stagnated? If we do things merely because others have done so, without being able to justify them empirically, arent we falling into a trap?

Well again, my intention wansnt to xxxx anyone off, just to share thoughts with others of like mind. If I offended anyone then that wasnt my intent. I will shut up now and move on. I will just accept that my design is xxxx and I dont know anything and have no business even trying to work on something or share and be done with it.

 

[MattBower]

Robert,

Welcome. I like your burner. It's obviously well made, and I can see you put a lot of work into it. If it's stable down to very low pressures, that's great; most induction burners that I've seen and used aren't. If it gives you the results you want, I think that's awesome. I would guess, based on my experience building similar burners, that it would have trouble breathing and would tend to run rich. But if that's not a problem for you, fantastic.

However, Thomas's point is well taken. One thing you're going to find about blacksmiths is that they're results-oriented people (not without a great big dash of superstition, of course). Levels of formal education and understanding of theory vary tremendously, but everyone respects a smith who knows how to do the job well and fast, even if he can't offer a lengthy theoretical explanation for what experience has taught him. That's true about pounding steel and building burners, and lots of other related stuff.

I'll wager there aren't very many here who can argue fluid dynamics with you, but assembled here on this site are, collectively probably tens or hundreds of thousands of man-hours using and building burners of all descriptions, including a bunch that are very similar to yours, and even if all that experience isn't backed up by a deep knowledge of theory, it holds up pretty well in the real world. That experience says the Reil design works reasonably well, and then you come along seeming to be saying that you think it's junk. Some readers might be forgiven for thinking that you're completely discounting the value of that collective experience I mentioned, while admitting you have basically none. I understand that you may not have intended to come across that way, and I'll grant you that maybe some folks are being a little hypersensitive in reading your comments. But just understand that that's how you may have come across to some folks.

Rather than try to argue theory, you might be better off just telling us about the burner's performance. If it's better than Reil's designs, people will figure that out pretty quickly.

Again, welcome. Sorry you've had such a rocky start.

[MattBower]

Oh, by the way: another thing you'll discover about blacksmiths is that many of them aren't shy about saying what they think. (Even when they're dead wrong.) You need skin of a certain thickness to hang around the smithing crowd, but the payoff is that they can also be incredibly kind, helpful and generous people.

[Robert Simmons]

Again, welcome. Sorry you've had such a rocky start.

Thanks for the comments on the burner.

As for the rest .. BAH nevermind. I shouldnt have come here. If the simple act of discussign the science or having the gall to question the "genuflecting" vetrans is offensive then the forum is not conducive to discussion and I wont fit in. I like to discuss thinge empirically and I really suck at dealing with people that say "Well I have been doing x for so long so you suck newb." I really dislike that. I prefer to discuss on scientific or empirical basis.

It just seems I am not a good fit for this site. I tried posting a couple threads and people jumped down my throat. Am I perfect? No way! Am I a complete asshole. I dont think so but anything is possible. Heck, even this thread which I expected would be pretty cool and took the time to label my picture and so on ends up offending? What a waste. My disappointment couldnt be higher. If the goal was to drive away, it has succeeded.

Good luck to you in the future.

[MattBower]

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope you'll reconsider. However, bear this in mind: when someone says, "I've built and used Reil burners for ten [or whatever] years, and they work pretty well" -- that *is* an empirical claim!

By the way, how's the propane jet held in place in your design?

[Dodge]

Robert,
Its sad that folks have to be so high and mighty as to feel they have to talk down to less experienced ppl that just want to learn as well as share. I have been dumped on in the past as well. BTW, the burners you made are very much like a version of (yes, the tried and true) Ron Reil EZ burners. They were modified with the injector tube by a man in Oregon named Jack Davis. I used them for 4 or so years without issue and I welded in a castable lined forge. Robert, don't let guys here get you down. For the most part, there are some great guys. There are just a few that feel, If you don't do it their way, its wrong and I say THAT's wrong. There are about as many ways to do almost everything as their are blacksmiths. The horn does NOT always have to be on the left

Edit: Oops. I guess I should read all posts before posting. Anyway, The attached burner worked. Sorry to have butted in. My apologies . :)

[ThomasPowers]

Actually I have a couple of BS degrees myself. I also have over 2 decades of working in world famous research organizations. I was taught that when you have empirical data that contradicts theoretical data you need to examine both the experiment to see if it's testing what you think it's testing *and* the theory to see if it's modeling the real world or some piddling little part has been ignored for simplicity that actually turns out to be a major player---look at the modern research on Wootz where the "tramp" elements actually control if you get the carbide arrangements you are trying to get!

I certainly felt like you were talking down to me; but I didn't leave the discussion; compared to some old German smiths I've talked with you are polite and well reasoned in your discourse. If you must leave; please remember that a lot of us are on other forums as well; shoot I am a co-moderator on a couple of blacksmithing forums.

OTOH I am bad enough with names that pretty much everyone starts over with a clear slate every post!

[Mainely,Bob]

Actually I have a couple of BS degrees myself. I also have over 2 decades of working in world famous research organizations. I was taught that when you have empirical data that contradicts theoretical data you need to examine both the experiment to see if it's testing what you think it's testing *and* the theory to see if it's modeling the real world or some piddling little part has been ignored for simplicity that actually turns out to be a major player---look at the modern research on Wootz where the "tramp" elements actually control if you get the carbide arrangements you are trying to get!

I certainly felt like you were talking down to me; but I didn't leave the discussion; compared to some old German smiths I've talked with you are polite and well reasoned in your discourse. If you must leave; please remember that a lot of us are on other forums as well; shoot I am a co-moderator on a couple of blacksmithing forums.

OTOH I am bad enough with names that pretty much everyone starts over with a clear slate every post!

On one of the other forums I use this signature"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.In practice there is".

Seems like it`s common practice to slap the new guy a few times here just to see what he`ll do.Sort of stings a little but I got over it just fine and have a whole bunch of new friends now.
I think anyone who has had to walk the deck plates with the rest of the yard dogs is familiar with the drill.
Let`s hope Robert`s burn heals into some tougher skin and he comes back to work.

[LarryM]

Robert,
Its sad that folks have to be so high and mighty as to feel they have to talk down to less experienced ppl that just want to learn as well as share. I have been dumped on in the past as well. BTW, the burners you made are very much like a version of (yes, the tried and true) Ron Reil EZ burners. They were modified with the injector tube by a man in Oregon named Jack Davis. I used them for 4 or so years without issue and I welded in a castable lined forge. Robert, don't let guys here get you down. For the most part, there are some great guys. There are just a few that feel, If you don't do it their way, its wrong and I say THAT's wrong. There are about as many ways to do almost everything as their are blacksmiths. The horn does NOT always have to be on the left

Edit: Oops. I guess I should read all posts before posting. Anyway, The attached burner worked. Sorry to have butted in. My apologies .

Robert,

I'm with Dodge on this one. Unless we try new stuff whether in theory, or otherwise we never advance. I do have a question what program did you use to edit the labels in the one picture. I was impressed with the labels.

Keep on hammer'n
Larry

[Robert Simmons]

I appreciate the various encouraging posts. I was feeling a bit like a skunk at a perfume trade show.

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope you'll reconsider. However, bear this in mind: when someone says, "I've built and used Reil burners for ten [or whatever] years, and they work pretty well" -- that *is* an empirical claim!

Well anecdotal with a lot of evidence at the very least. But I ask where would we be as a culture if we said "that works, dont change it" rather than, "what if I ....." Anyway I am not passing judgement on anyone and any design. I was only trying to share mine. Thats all.

By the way, how's the propane jet held in place in your design?

Two sets of three brass set screws. One set in the far back, one set in the middle of the coupler. Brass so they dont mar the jet tube.

I'm with Dodge on this one. Unless we try new stuff whether in theory, or otherwise we never advance.

I could try to build a straight line burner but I read (from Reil himself and others) that the burner was unstable at low pressures and prone to flameback. That is why I went with the side ported design and it works well. I can crank my propane WAY down to barely on and the burner holds. It even seems to self choke as I never had to adjust air flow at any point in the drop from 20 to 1 psi or lower. I think If I back the jet up maybe 1/4 of an inch the flame will be perfect.

I do have a question what program did you use to edit the labels in the one picture. I was impressed with the labels.

I am a mac guy. Its just the standard Preview image viewer that comes with any mac. I have been programming computers professionally for a long time and cant be bothered wrestling with windows when I dont have to.

[MattBower]

Glad you came back.

"Well anecdotal with a lot of evidence at the very least."

Well, if you're waiting for a study of blacksmithing injuries with and without gloves, with a statistically valid sample, a regression analysis and a significant result at the 95% confidence interval or better, or something like that, I think you're going to be waiting forever -- or until you do the research. This isn't a field where you see that kind of thing much, y'know?

[arftist]

Glad you came back.

"Well anecdotal with a lot of evidence at the very least."

Well, if you're waiting for a study of blacksmithing injuries with and without gloves, with a statistically valid sample, a regression analysis and a significant result at the 95% confidence interval or better, or something like that, I think you're going to be waiting forever -- or until you do the research. This isn't a field where you see that kind of thing much, y'know?

Welcome Robert. I have been doing this stuff for a long time, yet I don't know much at all about gas burners. I use a factory gas forge and a couple solid fuel forges that I built. I am planning on a new gas forge of my construction for convenience soon. I am going to go with Frosty's variable volume forge design, and likely his burner design too, since I know so little about designing burners. I did build my own (considerably improved IMHO) mechanical power hammer, and a host of other well performing metal working machines. In fact, I am always building a machine or two of some type.


We willingly share and pool our knowledge here, to further our own understanding of the craft, to document, preserve and improve blacksmithing world wide. There is too much information for any one to know it all and more than that has already been forgotten.


As to the pending glove study, I don't wear gloves forging. I use use various gloves when welding, torch cutting, handling iron bars (unloading trucks, getting stock off the rack), washing things with acid, working with cement and epoxy. I feel a bar for heat with the back of my hand before picking it up. If dragons breath has heated the bar I am going to smite, I grab the bar with tongs and quench the end I need to hold. I get burned far more often welding than forging. Sorry if this wasn't the glove survey.

[ThomasPowers]

And I'm a UNIX/LINUX guy for the last 20+ years both at home and at work (15 years Bell Labs, 6 years National Radio Astronomy Observatory) Great to have more non-windows folks about!

It's funny that I'm most likely to wear gloves when I getting stock from the scrap pile as it gets a tad warm out in the sun here in NM!

AND BTW folks there is a safety forum on this site...

Thomas

[Robert Simmons]

And I'm a UNIX/LINUX guy for the last 20+ years both at home and at work (15 years Bell Labs, 6 years National Radio Astronomy Observatory) Great to have more non-windows folks about!

It's funny that I'm most likely to wear gloves when I getting stock from the scrap pile as it gets a tad warm out in the sun here in NM!

AND BTW folks there is a safety forum on this site...

Thomas

I dont want to rehash the gloves debate. As for OSes, I just cant be bothered messing around with Linux when off work. Id rather things jsut work. If I want to spend dozens of hours screwing with a config file, I will go to work and get paid for it. Mac OS is BSD unix with a slick UI and easy administration. best of all worlds. Once you go Mac, you cant go back.

[pkrankow]

I could try to build a straight line burner but I read (from Reil himself and others) that the burner was unstable at low pressures and prone to flameback. That is why I went with the side ported design and it works well. I can crank my propane WAY down to barely on and the burner holds. It even seems to self choke as I never had to adjust air flow at any point in the drop from 20 to 1 psi or lower. I think If I back the jet up maybe 1/4 of an inch the flame will be perfect.

The self-choke effect is a function of fluid dynamics. The higher pressure fuel jet simply pulls more air in than the lower pressure fuel jet. The choke is to adjust the forge to a rich condition from a neutral condition for specific tasks that are better done in an oxygen poor environment.

My forge does not currently have chokes, which can make welding a challenge.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Robert; I have not spent *1* minute messing with my home computer in the last 6 years; never even did any upgrades! And not having any virii issues helps a ton. Bought it from a friend who *has* to have the latest and greatest and so assembled me one from his discards for $125. 6 years ago when I moved out here I did have to put in the new dial up number; but I don't see how a Mac would have avoided that...

[Marc]

I'll throw in with the Linux crowd - Mint Linux (Ubuntu-based) for me. Macs look great, and my son loves his, but I couldn't part with the extra $$ to get that. I put in some config time years ago when wireless Ethernet was relatively new and my laptop needed some driver work. And most recently with my brand new Walmart special eMachines laptop I wanted to dim the screen with the keyboard Fn keys, so a few minutes Googling and a few minutes to fix a config file. Other than that, Mint/Ubuntu is pretty stable and installs painlessly.

Different strokes....

[pkrankow]

y'all are making me want to make this underpowered EEE1000 into a Linux "box"...been thinking about that for about a week since I got it.

My Linux box is a dual PPro 200, siting in the basement. I haven't used it in about a year, but for an over 10 year old machine it was fully capable...after waiting for boot up. Windows took 30 min, Linux 10 min. Windows was useless for other than word processing, Linux wouldn't print...go figure.

Phil

PS, looks like this thread has been hijacked, sorry.