Iron sharpens iron

[DougieB]

Hi there, I was trying to find someone who could help me verify if the above statement is true. And if it is true, how would someone go about proving it. It was originally written over 2500 years ago, and I wonder if anyone knows metalworking history on how iron would have been used to sharpen iron. I do quite a bit of knife sharpening - but I don't own any iron age implements.

Thanks,
Doug

[junker]

maybe in the form of a file? :blink:

[Rich Hale]

Do you own any iron knives?

[Rich Hale]

Ok now for a bit better answer:
Look up butchers steel; they are like a round file that lost all of its teeth. Like most tools used to sharpen they can also be used to make an edge worse. It is about angles and how they work on an edge. They have just enough of a texture on them that they will remove a wee tiny amount of metal when used on a steel blade. They are not for restoring the edge on a blade that needs conventional methods, like maybe a file, a stone, a belt sander or ceramic pieces specific for edges. Lots of unusual things can be used for similiar touch ups. like a rolled up newspaper or cardboard tube. I would guess we could make a list of make do items on here that would get you by if you needed a touch up.

[Golden_eagle]

iron wears against iron, ergo iron sharpens iron, if it can dull a knife, it can sharpen a knife.

[DougieB]

Hi Rich,

Thank you. I am hoping to stay away from carbon steel in favour of sticking to people living in the early iron age where tools would be crude. (I think)

I am assuming that the initial edge would somehow be pounded out on an anvil, then possibly stoned, but then would somehow running iron over iron possibly improve the edge? Like you say it is all about angles.

The quote is from proverbs, As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

I think it is easy to show that one man sharpens another, I would like to know how they arrived at the first part.

If there may be some iron age historians out there?

[DougieB]

Hi Golden_eagle,

That makes sense. What kind of experiment could I set up to prove that? I have been thinking about mounting a 5 lb weight on my wood lathe and turning it at low speed.

[Golden_eagle]

use a piece of mild steel as a strop.

[bigjohn]

I think perhaps the proverb means literally to shape the iron and form it into some type of implement. Rather than being just a lump of iron it is formed or transformed into a useful object. Or perhaps the first iron refers to a hammer and or anvil and the second iron refers to the material being worked upon. At any rate it is drawing a comparison regarding transformation of material and people.

[Mainely,Bob]

Here`s my guess;it refers not to knives or weapons,man has found stones in every type of country to sharpen those.What it may refer to is tools such as stone working chisels(sometimes refered to as "fire sharps") and other tools that when dull were brought back to the anvil and a new sharper edge was forged up.
Iron(the hammer and anvil) sharpens iron(the tool).

[son_of_bluegrass]

The quote is from proverbs, As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Have you gone back to the original hebrew or greek or whatever language that statement was written in? Often something gets lost in translation and if you go back to the original text and see what other ways the translation can be made may give very different results.

ron

[Golden_eagle]

It's proverbs 27:17, paraphrased Hebrew translation: iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens his brothers
literal Hebrew translation: iron sharpens iron; and, along the - other.
scholars translation (or intent translation,): Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

original Hebrew: יז בַּרְזֶל בְּבַרְזֶל יָחַד; וְאִישׁ, יַחַד פְּנֵי-רֵעֵהוּ.

[DougieB]

Thanks Golden_eagle,

The strop idea will work fine. I want to make a little youtube vid to prove it to a brother. I was trying to think of a way I could come up with two pieces of iron for an experiment, but if I can sharpen a kitchen knife on a piece of mild steel it will be evidence enough.

If anyone does have any historical knowledge though on iron sharpening iron, I'd love to hear.

Thanks bigjohn and Bob too, I know this is as much theological as metalurgical, I figured this may be a good place for ideas.

[Don A]

I have read that, in the past, scythe or sickle blades have been sharpened cold in the field with a stake anvil and a hammer.

[MattBower]

I have read that, in the past, scythe or sickle blades have been sharpened cold in the field with a stake anvil and a hammer.

Yep, Don beat me to it.

It occurs to me that the author in Proverbs might very well have been talking about cold working low carbon wrought iron to work harden it.

[Mainely,Bob]

It's proverbs 27:17, paraphrased Hebrew translation: iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens his brothers
literal Hebrew translation: iron sharpens iron; and, along the - other.
scholars translation (or intent translation,): Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

original Hebrew: יז בַּרְזֶל בְּבַרְזֶל יָחַד; וְאִישׁ, יַחַד פְּנֵי-רֵעֵהוּ.

Would that be the same as wanting to emulate the better qualities of the people around you?
In today`s world it might also translate into "lead by example".

[ThomasPowers]

I'd say the opposite, the folks with lesser qualities are improved by the "hammering" of the folks with better qualities. I'd look into the sharpening of scythes using a denglestock and hammer myself, or the action of sheep shears---the old style go way back! You may remember that the Israelites were hammered on by many of the other local peoples when they strayed...

Where are you at? I can send you some real wrought iron, what they would have used and not any carbon content or heat treat to it for old testament days. Can you file a blade from it; I can do a rough forge to shape for you when I take my Y0K forge set up to the local "Little Town of Bethlehem" set up in early Dec...

(and remember there are *2* places in the Bible that mention forging your pruning hooks into spears and your plowshares into swords and only *1* going the other way!)

[Thomas Dean]

Thanks Golden_eagle,

The strop idea will work fine. I want to make a little youtube vid to prove it to a brother. I was trying to think of a way I could come up with two pieces of iron for an experiment, but if I can sharpen a kitchen knife on a piece of mild steel it will be evidence enough.

If anyone does have any historical knowledge though on iron sharpening iron, I'd love to hear.

Thanks bigjohn and Bob too, I know this is as much theological as metalurgical, I figured this may be a good place for ideas.

Doug, I will often take one of the kitchen knives and sharpen it on the back of another kitchen knife. The back edge of the second knife should not have a soft or rolled edge like a table knife will have. I can sharpen a knife by doing this to where it will cut a tomatoe in two with me only holding the knife with my thumb and fore finger. This may be another way try this 'experiment'.

[Mainely,Bob]

I'd say the opposite, the folks with lesser qualities are improved by the "hammering" of the folks with better qualities.


I`d have to disagree with you on this Thomas.I think one of the qualities that makes some folks "better" is that they have found it inappropriate to interfere with other`s free will on a day to day basis unless asked or directed to do so.
Most of the people I prefer to be around and pattern my life after don`t hammer others if they do anything at all they help others.They most often quietly go about the business of living the best life they can live while following their ethical and moral compass.If others don`t notice what they are doing then that`s OK with them,it`s not their business to save/sharpen anybody against their will.They have a live and let live frame of mind yet they quietly and firmly stand on the ground they have chosen till convinced it`s time to move or speak.

I find people who are determined to "sharpen" others too edgy and abrasive. :)

[Don A]

The key word here is "brothers".

This Proverb does not imply unwelcome "hammering", but rather challenge and exhortation from one willing brother to another.

Being challenged by those with more understanding than we possess makes us better.

I think this has both a practical and scriptural application.

Blacksmithing, martial arts, music, etc., etc... you get sharpened by being around folks that can push your limits.

I am thankful for Christian brothers that have cared enough for me to "hammer" me on occasion.

Don

[Thomas Dean]

The key word here is "brothers".

This Proverb does not imply unwelcome "hammering", but rather challenge and exhortation from one willing brother to another.

Being challenged by those with more understanding than we possess makes us better.

I think this has both a practical and scriptural application.

Blacksmithing, martial arts, music, etc., etc... you get sharpened by being around folks that can push your limits.

I am thankful for Christian brothers that have cared enough for me to "hammer" me on occasion.

Don

I agree. The iron sharpens iron example in Proverbs is improving the second iron by the first iron.

[DougieB]

I'd say the opposite, the folks with lesser qualities are improved by the "hammering" of the folks with better qualities. I'd look into the sharpening of scythes using a denglestock and hammer myself, or the action of sheep shears---the old style go way back! You may remember that the Israelites were hammered on by many of the other local peoples when they strayed...

Where are you at? I can send you some real wrought iron, what they would have used and not any carbon content or heat treat to it for old testament days. Can you file a blade from it; I can do a rough forge to shape for you when I take my Y0K forge set up to the local "Little Town of Bethlehem" set up in early Dec...

(and remember there are *2* places in the Bible that mention forging your pruning hooks into spears and your plowshares into swords and only *1* going the other way!)

Hi Thomas,

I would be interested in some real wrought iron and I can file it. December would be fine too as I still haven't figured how to work the pieces against each other.
I'm in Calgary, AB, Canada.

[DougieB]

Hi All,

So yesterday, I set up my little movie set and made a movie of me rubbing a kitchen knife against a hot rolled flat bar. It turned out to be a comedy! The camera got tired of waiting for me and shut off after about 10 min. Oh well, as you guys have given me some great ideas including self sharpening shears and working with the specialized anvils and such, I am confident I am going to come up with a suitable demonstration.

The flat bar does not conform at all to the edge of the blade like a strop, and it really limits the contact area. The blade I tried was only a little worse than one that could be brought back sharp with a butcher steel. But after about 20 minutes - I could see no effect to the edge. Towards the end of the 20 min I was starting to see if running down the edges of the flat bar would get me anywhere. I did see a slight bit of wear to the flat bar. Maybe I need more patience and a jig to hold the perfect angle so I am only working the very edge.

My normal strop is a continuous belt and it would have done that edge in 20 seconds.

[golgotha forge & anvil]

Mainely,Bob...Amen to ur last post ! Also, if I'm not mistaken which is definitely possible, the 2 main authors of proverbs was David and his son Solomon...

Gene

[Rich Hale]

Your experiment rubbing the blade against a piece of steel would work..it is a matter of time. It is also a great a way to show why knives have evolved from copper/bronze onto iron and later to steel. Steel does not wear sa fast and that is a good thing for an edge.
You would likely have gotten similiar or maybe even less affect on the blade if you had used iron. Maybe more depending on the silica content of the piece of iron you used.

I still get hung up on the original point of this thread, although it gets more interesting as it goes along. The origianl title was iron sharpens iron. Or as I see it it is a question of whether rubbing iron against iron will wear away some of the iron on one or both pieces and change the shape in any manner. It seems the thread has found you a source of iron. If you wish to test that out.
Ler us know..and have fun.