rls1160 Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 hi everyone, I have a chance to pick up a working Champion #50 blower with motor. what I am wondering is if anyone has an idea if this blower will meet the static pressure needs of a 4" x 6" ribbon burner. any guesses on how much static pressure this blower will produce? obviously we are assuming tye blower is functional and sound thanks for your insights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 Hard to say. Certainly looks promising, but output is directly related to impeller RPM and motor size. My gut says using a 1/2 HP motor at an RPM just below blade and bearing allowables should be enough, but it is difficult to predict without knowing details of your piping design and performing tests on your custom ribbon burner. Note: I am not offering to perform this analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rls1160 Posted October 18, 2022 Author Share Posted October 18, 2022 Latticino, Thank you, I am not expecting anyone to run an analysis. the burner will be bottom mounted in a raised forge platform. This particular blower is direct drive and could be mounted so that I end up with straight piping from blower outlet to burner input. Blower output is 3" round, air supply piping is 1-1\2" black pipe. IdeallybIbwill end up with 16-18" of pipe, no elbows, a gate valve and a reducer from 3" to 1-1\2". I have asked for motor specs but motor plaque only states volts, cycles and tye number 50 in the box preeceeding the cycle figure. My guess is that it's 1/2 hp. I will run a static pressure test on it with a u tube manometer to get a better idea the pressure it puts out. A 5 hour round trip drive to see if something may work is something I am trying to avoid. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 Where do you intend to put the gas jet? With the inlet pipe aimed straight down the burner nozzles I expect you installed a diffusion plate mostly blocking the flow. This is the design flaw that makes high static pressure necessary. A short run of tubing between the blower and burner means the propane and air will NOT be well mixed making for strange conditions in the forge chamber. I commend you for following the directions, this is a GOOD thing and this is an accepted and proven design. You see pics and videos of the in operation from lots of shops. You can spot one immediately by the dragon's breath measured in FEET! My advice is to give it at LEAST 16" preferably 24"+ of mixing tube with at minimum one 90* bend and mount the gas jet as close to the BLOWER as possible. The longer the gas has to mix with the air the better the flame quality, propane does NOT mix with air naturally. Using larger tubing until it enters the plenum won't hurt. Please post pictures of it in the forge, we LOVE pictures. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rls1160 Posted October 19, 2022 Author Share Posted October 19, 2022 Thank you Frosty, I got a bit more information on the blower. Impeller diamater is 10" estimated rpm on motor is 1500, HP is a bit sketchy, maybe 1\2 hp. I will be making a trip to look at and run a static pressure test on the blower. Yes, Frosty I incorporated a vadfel plate in the burner plenum. I basically followed what I could dig up on the Pine ridge burner. I am attaching a few pics of the burner plenum build out prior to welding on the top cap. As for the piping and gas connection. That's a bit up in the air as I don't have a blower yet so I took a few pics of what I am thinking. I incorporated your suggestions on length and elbow addition to help in fuel/air mixing. I have read few maker suggestions that imply there is no need to install an orifice. so direct pipe in of Gas to fuel/air supply is sufficient. An in-line needle valve acts as the orifice. I'm sure I will need different nipple pipe section lengths once I have blower in hand. Any Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I can't tell much from your pics but it's built now, the mixing tube and orifice position will be what you decide. I wish folks would look up words they don't understand. "Orifice" means, "hole." It would be impossible to introduce propane into the air stream without an orifice. A "Jet" is an orifice that directs the fluid / gas in a stream. The nozzle on a garden hose is a good example of a type of "jet". The term jet is a little slippery as it describes both the "nozzle" and the stream ejected. A gun (blown) burner only requires an orifice. A Naturally Aspirated (NA) burner REQUIRES a JET to induce combustion air. It looks like you're thinking of using larger copper tubing for your propane supply. This won't work if your blower produces much static pressure at all. With such a large orifice it will take very little propane psi to deliver enough fuel so if the blower produces more psi NO fuel can exit the orifice. The volume of a cylinder is Pi x r squared x length. Doubling the Dia squares the area and fuel delivery / psi. This example is just for purposes of discussion. If 4 psi delivers enough fuel through a 1/8" orifice, slightly less than 1psi will deliver the same amount of fuel through a 1/4" orifice. Why not connect the hose directly to the mixing tube fittings? It's not like a NA burner mounted above the forge, this burner won't chimney heat, hose is safe. The fewer connections you have in a fuel line the fewer places it can leak. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rls1160 Posted October 19, 2022 Author Share Posted October 19, 2022 Frosty, The air supply is not built out, I just cobbled a few items together to give you a general idea of the direction I was headed. Nothing is set in stone at thus point. The pics I attached of the piping did not come through the original post. I am heading back from my trip to look at the champion #50 blower. It blew air but had little to no resistance to back pressure. By no orifice (jet) some others were suggesting to directly pipe the propane into air fuel supply using a straight 1\4" pipe, no tiny hole orifices. I don't have the knowledge to say wether this is good bad or indifferent. originally I was planning to run copper pipe into the pipe tee center. crimp and solder the copper pipe end and drill a gas orifice hole somewhere between a #60 and #58 drill size. That would be my gas orifice. I am running into a brick wall regarding a proper blower for my ribbon burner. Research points to squirrel cage blowers no good, anything I can find the puts out an inch or so of wc pressure is insanely expensive. I am kind of at a dead end with this. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 Frosty, You and I differ slightly in our use of certain terms. In my engineering world an orifice is a special subset of "hole". Specifically a hole that is a reduction in crossection from the size of the main body of the fluid conveying structure (pipe, duct...). While it typically will result in an increase in flow, it isn't always used for creating a jet (per se), but may be used for things like flow monitoring. In this case I would term the gas connection to the burner mixing chamber a port or reducing TEE rather than an orifice if the OP doesn't provide a drilled orifice, as he initially planned. Please also note that any realistic blower for this system won't produce anything more than at the very maximum 4" water gauge (~0.14 PSI). I am having trouble envisioning a situation where the static pressure induced by the blower would prevent flow from the 5-30 PSI propane source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rls1160 Posted October 19, 2022 Author Share Posted October 19, 2022 Perhaps the two of you should start a new topic to discuss the meaning of Orifice. Anyone else on this forum have any thoughts on a reasonable blower for a ribbon burner other than the meaning of or proper use of the word orifice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I'll defer to your professional knowledge and experience Latticino. I'll butt out of this thread and leave it to the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Frosty, Your contributions are always welcome. Sorry for getting so pedantic. rls1160, Some thread drift is inevitable. I don't have a recommendation for a cheap forge blower for you. However I did once locate a perfect one at a liquidator for $25, so they are out there. If you are on a serious budget you may consider trying to find a used one from a furnace repair shop. Some of these new condensing boilers and furnaces have good ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Not always Latticino, sometimes my attempts to make terminology consistent irks new guys who want just the answers they want. I tend to get too "involved" in replies so I have to leave them to themselves, especially when asked to go. Perhaps I should've started a new thread or PMed this. Oh well, sue me. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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