Adamsnj112 Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 Frosty thanks alot sorry this whole thing has become frustrating and I’m normally a very good problem solver but this is like a foreign language to me for some reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 You're welcome, it's my pleasure. This kind of confusion is the norm when trying to learn things from the internet, especially youtube. The only qualifications a person needs to be a Youtube expert is a video camera and internet connection. Iforge has a reputation for members watching online videos and vetting them, probably 15 to 1 get ripped for being stupid wrong to outright dangerous. We'll get you squared away and practicing the craft. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 I’m going to try reshaping the cone some more tonight, my anvil has a stout horn so it’s kinda tricky for the 1:12 ratio is that 1” increase over 12” for radius or diameter my sketch there is 1” increase over 12” on the radius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Try 1/8" diameter increase in 1-1/2" of length. BUT, in recent years people have found that they could increase the amount of angle a lot more; you just bought someone's attempt at going "a bridge too far." So, consider The 1:12 ratio a rational starting point, and go s-l-o-o-o-o-w. Pound a little, check and repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 Ok so with the little time I had today I think I made progress? Really not sure. I did contact the manufacturer, they said these burners need to run at 14-17psi and the choke should be about 8mm open.... clearly that last part is wrong. So the nozzle is at just under 1.75” ID at the large end, the taper is over about 1.5” long and starting at 1.3” The first burner pic is the reshaped nozzle with choke wide open and the second is the stock nozzle run at manufacturer specs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 Side note I was sent this video by devil forge of how to tune their burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I watched that video; they produced weak and reducing flames in all three burners; they must be so proud of their utterly underwelming accomplishment. Last year I was seeing hard blue flames coning from their equipment--no more. though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 That video is rather outdated but as you can tell from my experience the flame is maxed out at reducing, will any amount of nozzle rework be able to save this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I think so; if not there are other little tricks that will complete the journey. Here is the bottom line: the basic burner design is sound, so don't sweat the details. This group is available, knowledgeable, and willing to help as long is you want to keep improving those burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 I have a friend looking into machining some nozzles, should I look into making these forced air? What’s my next step Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 No forced air; you would need to start from scratch, to do that. Okay, lets change over your gas orifices, while you wait for the nozzles. Drill and thread 1/4-27 (perfect) or 1/4-28 (workable) holes in the side holes that are probably used for gas orifices in your burner's gas tubes. Thread 1-1/2" long tapered MIG contact tips for .023" welding wire; Do yourself a favor and just buy them online. You will also need to use part of a broom handle, etc, with a 1/4" hole in its end, to push the MIG tip into, so that you can screw it into the gas tube, through the end of the burner. Save the stick, so that you can change out tips for cleaning, etc. This will soup up the burner's gas/air flow so much that a step nozzle is the best kind to use. A slide-over stepped flame retention nozzle is just a pipe within pipe. The inner pipe (or tube) is a spacer ring that slides back and fourth on the burner's mixing tube The outer pipe needs to be as long as its inner diameter, plus the width of the spacer ring, plus 1/8". How many set screw are needed to keep the nozzle parts together, and centered on the mixing tube can be as little as one, or as many as six, depending on how well the parts match up; this would be a better use of your buddy's machining skills. Actually, if you can find .025" MIG tips. they will be perfect; They didn't use to exist, and half the time, when a seller offers them, they find print will show that the are actually .023". I get disgusted and discouranged, but that shouldn't stop you for trying for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 Mikey for the mig tip, the gas tube that’s in there is only .400” dia stainless tube, the threads on a mig tip (on my welder at least) are .29” long. I don’t see this working to well without cutting out that tube and replacing it with a bigger one. another question, I looked though the burner to forge thread and was wondering if this forge is simply too small for 2 1” burners, I saw 350cuin was kinda the golden rule for 3/4” burners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 I remember seeing pics of their burners producing good flames, seems they've either improved them or cut one too many corners. I think this video is a good example of what happens when you use too long a mixing tube. Even running 0.035 mig tip the large burner should need to be choked down if it were a good length. Maybe someone in management noticed saw blades lasted longer if you cut the tubes longer? It also looks like they've put the jet position even farther down the burner. I don't have the measurements of any of these burners so I'm guesstimating things. If I'm right though then the lengthened mixing tube is increasing friction, increasing pressure and reducing induction. #1 Moving the jet position farther down the burner reduces induction further. I certainly wouldn't lower the jet position further with a mig tip, it'd require a serious reduction in jet diameter. Of course the increased jet velocity would make up for the friction and depth. A conversion to mig tip jets does make changing jet diameter easy though. My original reason in fact. I'd hold off having an outlet nozzle machined till we get this thing closer to range. Ah HAH we were typing at the same time. It might be a little tight but you should be able to tap into the side of 0.40" tubing. If your mig contact tip threaded section is 0.29" long, just shorten it a little. Fast work with a file and chase the threads. Your local welding supply will have taps and dies for the contact tips you buy there. It's not uncommon to need to chase the threads in your gun. 350 cu/in is the reasonable upper limit for a well tuned 3/4" NA burner, 300 cu/in is more realistic goal for folk new to making and tuning burners. A 1" NA burner has 2x the output of a 3/4" and hitting the upper limit is easier so expecting to heat a 700 cu/in forge is more reasonable expectation. A forge with two 1" burners should push a 1,500 cu/in forge to welding temps. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 Frosty, here’s some quick measurements of the 1” burner so with the small mig tip it should be ok?or should I trim the tube back this might be tricky since the gas tube is tack welded at either end, some careful cutting and grinding now back to original issue of excess flames, will creating a proper neutral flame take care of this issue, or am I fighting a reducing flame and too small Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Adamsnj112 said: Mikey for the mig tip, the gas tube that’s in there is only .400” dia stainless tube, the threads on a mig tip (on my welder at least) are .29” long. I don’t see this working to well without cutting out that tube and replacing it with a bigger one. another question, I looked though the burner to forge thread and was wondering if this forge is simply too small for 2 1” burners, I saw 350cuin was kinda the golden rule for 3/4” burners If it makes you feel better, you can cut or sand the thread shorter, and file the burr from its end. However, I never did. The gas is going from a much larger volume to a much, much smaller area. So, considerations of flow would only be important in a water system, where you would have concern about "hammer" in the pipes. With gas, your concerns are unfounded. The forge probably is much too small for two of these burners, just estimating from your photos; you haven't provided interior measurements, so my answer is tentative. And yes, this will add back-pressure to your burner problems. My MIG recommendations were wrong; they would work for a 3/4 burner. You will need a MIG tip for 035" or .040" welding wire. Why two different sizes? Becuase the optimal orifice size falls between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 Mikey, the forge measures about 8.5” diameter and 20” long with the ceramic plate just below centerline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Why so long? Nevertheless, one of those big burners should be enough. Two smaller burners would serve better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamsnj112 Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 Mike, the forge body started as a old small water tank so I modified it to be only one burner with the modified cone also the burner is at and angle now, the flame is much better and there’s some swirl now but there is still about 5in of flame coming out. This thing can simply not get enough air in my tinkering I tried adding one air via a rigged up pressure regulator and airline, and wow what a difference that flame got much hotter with a strong blue color and no more blowing out the side! so I talked to devil forge and their Venturi burners and forced air burners are essentially the same body with a modified inlet side. So this weekend I will be tinkering with compressed air as well as a small blower I have laying around that I need a rheostat for speed control. I’ll report back after some more tinkering and update with a bunch of pictures of where things currently stand and with air modification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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