Some anvil advice

[Ary]

Hello there. I have been wanting to get into blacksmithing for a few years now, but finding an anvil in my price range has been an unsuccessful journey. I am a welder at my day job and I have always wished upon a star that we would get some thick drop off of some decent grade steel (that I could sweet talk the boss out of) and just build my own for next to nothing. Well today my wish came true, I was given 4 24" diameter circles 3/4" thick of 1045 carbon steel (not the best grade but better than nothing). I am wanting to basically cut out pieces and stack them all together to form an anvil. I have the dimensions in my head and have drawn out most of the pieces that need to be cut. My question is what would be the best practical way for an inexperienced blacksmith/experienced welder to weld each piece together. I know I can cut 1" or so circles in each plate and stagger the holes to plug weld each slab to each other. Or I might be able to forge weld them? What advice would the experienced blacksmiths give on this. I have tried to search on this topic here and else where but my search results have 90% been about cost effectiveness/just get a section of rail road track (very illegal at least in my state), but seeing as how this metal is free, the plasma table at work can cut them to shape for free, and I can weld them for "free" (cost of the wire), would this be a decent alternative at least until I know I'm not making a wasteful purchase for something I might not even enjoy?

Final question, if this stacked method is workable, can I just quench and temper the top plate (after welding and normalizing) or do I need to get a harder steel for a top plate then quench and temper that after welding. Keep in mind this is just going to be a temporary anvil until I can justify dropping a large wad of cash on a "real" anvil.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Ary, 

     ( IMHO )  I think it would be best to find that chunk of RR track than use your welding skills to fab up a free standing stand for hardy tooling ... Lots of scraps available... You can also make up a vice block for some hardy tools...   Most of us let’s say older more seasoned smiths would agree with that combination of equipment we could get along just fine.. 

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

 

 

[Ary]

Although I agree that a piece of rail track would be a better alternative, as previously mentioned it is illegal in my state for the rail road companies to sell track (even to scrap yards) within the state. So in order to acquire a piece someone would have to break the law.  

Im not willing to break the law or ask others to in my stead in order to pick up a hobby for myself.

I do appreciate your response and advice but rail track is not an option for me.

[stevomiller]

I have to think about this a bit and get back to you on how I’d do it given the materials you have.

In the meantime, how about a few more questions:

Do you have access to any large pieces of mild steel you can also use in the fabrication, preferably large blocks, 2-4” thick plate, 4” square bar or round? Again A36, 1010, 1020 is fine.

You have access to a plasma table and sounds like a mig welder (what size and capacity?) what other welding and fabrication tools? 

What heat sources for heat treating? Large furnace? Very large rosebud OA? 

Do you have experience building up and hardfacing large surfaces?

Lastly, if you were to guess, what would you like to forge once you start smithing, and are you sold on your anvil looking just like what most folks in the USA think of when they say anvil, which is the London pattern anvil?

Let us know these things, you might be able to fabricate an awesome anvil that lasts multiple lifetimes, AND actually fits your needs better than most purchased anvils. It will alll be dependent on the questions above, your skill level, and desire to see it through.

Be blessed,

Steve 

[VaughnT]

Weld up plates?  No.  Not worth the time and material to do it.

Can't find an anvil in your price range?  Really?  There are scrap yards all over Louisiana where you can find large chunks of steel. Or, are you wanting a london-pattern anvil because you think that's what you need to be a blacksmith?

To give you an idea what anvils look like, here are a couple from GS Tongs on youtube.  He makes them and uses them, and never seems to have a problem forging some really nice stuff.  And because they're relatively light, he can flip them and use different faces as needed.  They are most definitely not "london pattern" anvils.

 

Surely you can find a similar chunk of solid steel around the junk yards.  Even if it's mild steel, a few minutes with some hard-facing rod or wire would turn the face into something rather resistant to impact.

[Ary]

@stevomiller Thank you for the well thought out reply! 

As to your questions; as far as thicker steel is concerned we build tanks (liquid tanks not the military vehicle type) so 3/4 is about the biggest we get barring specialty jobs. The material we receive for said specialty jobs is usually provided by the customer or third party and any drop or scraps are returned to the customer and/or third party. As far as the welding equipment we have, I personally can GMAW, SMAW, and GTAW and my machine can push 600 amps. We do have access to a SAW but after talking to the guy that runs that side of the shop the 3/4 is going to be to thin to weld on edge with the sub-arc without melting down the corners and possibly blowing out the middle. For the fab equipment we have plate rollers, punches, band saws and breaks from 20 ton to 400 ton. The other half of the company is refractory, they have lots of scrap fire-brick so as far as tempering I was thinking I could fab a frame to build a temporary box above a coal forge to heat treat, stress relieve and temper the material (open to suggestions on this). For hardfacing, that is actually how I learned to weld many many years ago although it was hashing a diamond pattern to loader buckets (and hopefully my welding skills have improved since those days). For what I am planing to forge, I was going to start out with making all of my own tools, the only purchase I want to make is a ball peen hammer to start, everything else I plan to make (hammers, tongs, hardy tools etc) just to reclaim what little knowledge I have about smithing and hopefully expand my existing knowledge. Eventually I would like to make knives, axes, swords (If I am up to the task, I understand forging a sword is a very time consuming endeavor) as well as small projects to the tune of drawer pulls, towel hooks/racks etc. I do have "some" knowledge of smithing but that knowledge is restricted to farrier work and ninety eight percent of the shoes were cold forge with the two percent remaining being simple tasks such as putting borium on mule shoes and an occasional cross bar. Which brings me to your last inquisition about the london pattern anvil. I don't know if the smiths here (and honestly around the world) are asked about that particular style so much that it is an automatic assumption that any new smith wanting to build their own anvil is going to go with that style, but that is not the style I was planning to go with. That is not an accusation, only an observation, I do not mean any disrespect by that as I am more than grateful for your time, help, and advice. The anvil I have "built" in my head looks more like an Australian style but it wasn't intentionally modeled that way, I have only about 3" off the back of the anvil which is just enough for the hardy and pritchel holes with empty space below to knock out the plugs of anything I need to punch or drift. The horn (if included, I might end up just making a hardy tool to replace the need for a horn) will be a very stubby thing only about 4" or so. The waist is the same size as the face, and will basically just be a solid block of metal running from face to foot. I did have a suggestion today by a co-worker to have each piece of plate running vertically instead of horizontally, I would have to agree with that suggestion as it would add more structural integrity especially in the horn and heel areas.

 

In closing, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me and potentially others who are in the same situation as myself. 

[stevomiller]

Ary,

Id agree with your coworker that said stand your laminated plates vertically, my gut tells me it will behave better than if you stacked them horizontally.

You  could plug weld and perimeter weld (that’s a lot of welding to get 3-5” thick out of .75” plate) , stress relieve then use the Rob Gunther method of medium hard face underlayment topped with like 2 passes deep of the fully hard Stoody rod he recommends. Research it on this site and others, you can find a full detailed account that’s proven effective.

3/4” top plate unless forge welded in place (or 100% welded, not stitched or perimeter) is on the thin side, and if you aren’t literally a professional smith with experience, with a huge forge, an overhead tram (or cherry picker) and 4 crazy buddies willing to strike for you forge welding isn’t truly a viable option. I’d recommend trying this route, but if you have the materials, space, men and gonads then heck why not, especially if materials are free.

If you could get a piece of 3x3 or 4x4 by say 20” long you could shape one end into a 6” horn , and have 4” hang off the xxxx end with the hardy hole close to the body so that it was very solid. Both sizes I listed if made of 1045-1050 or 4140 can be professionally heat treated to the mid or upper 50’s RC for $100-$150 bucks. They are thick enough that even with preheating and welding to the base/waist the top face should keep its hardness.

Lastly, and not what you want to hear probably, I’d see if I could sell that 1045 as is or cut/shear it into strips/plates and sell it to other smiths/fabricators and either buy a block of steel that would be more like GS uses, or Brian Brazeal (if you still want to fab one), or use the money earned towards a new or used quality anvil. A $1000 gets you a 110-190lbs new anvil made of tool steel and properly heat treated. Just some things to ponder. 

However, if you choose to go down your original path, post pics and keep us informed. If it truly is mostly free then sweat equity might give you something nice if you plan and work smart.

Best

Steve