bhixson Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 hey all, i have a little giant 50lb power hammer. the adjustment nut at the end of the pittman arm came off while i was forging. thankfully nothing broke. all i have to do is get it back together. i am having trouble compressing the coil spring between the two arms far enough to get the nut on the end of the pittman arm. anyone have any experience putting these together. i have never had to work on this hammer since i bought it several years ago. i tried to squeeze the 2 arms together with a ratchet strap but it didnt work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew T Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Ideally your toggle links would be both be longer. Then you could double nut them so they wouldn't loosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhixson Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 yeah, as it is the hammer ran best when the nuts were at the very end. i have no clue how to change these toggle links. im very inexperienced with the mechanical side of this hammer. its been so reliable ive never worked on it for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaudry Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 How about a length of threaded rod or a long bolt with nuts and some washers through the gap between the u shaped end of spring arms and the knuckle that holds the toggle arm. Or a pair of them through a couple of pieces of flat bar that spans the two arms. Use as big a rod as big as will fit in there for maximum pull. Maybe use the strap to get things started and to act as a preventer in case something comes loose A heavy duty welders bar clamp or possibly a pipe clamp might work too as long as it didn't slip. You can double nut it with two locking half nuts. These are made for that purpose and are about half the overall height of a regular hex nut. Tighten the first nut down to the proper place and run the second one down against and back the first nut off just enough to lock them together. You need two wrenches to do this. The tension on the arms should be such that the arms are level or pointing slightly uphill towards the ram at full down position at rest. Make a guard to go around the front of the hammer. Mock it up with some cardboard or plywood to get it right so you still have access to the adjustment nuts and lubrication points. Making the guard with some flat bar and 1/2' x 3/4'' expanded mesh will be solid enough so it doesn't rattle and will protect you from all those moving parts going around at face level and let you still keep an eye on things. You are lucky you weren't hurt when that spring came loose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhixson Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 thanks for the tip. i am making a trip to the hardware store today to get what i need to try this. i have a guard just like you described built around the front . it is removed in the pic i posted. i feel luck that i had it in place when the spring flew out of there. could have been bad. ill post my results , thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhixson Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 well i got the spring back in place by using a pipe clamp on the spring mount flanges. this allowed me to compress spring enough to then screw the nut on to the toggle link bolts. i have another problem now that it is back together. the hammer only lightly taps the material in the dies. if i tighten the nuts up to tension the spring further the hammer barely comes down to the material. if i loosen it up, the nuts are half off the toggle link bolts before the ram will do it work. i guess this is the fine adjustment i hear everyone describe about tuning their hammer. any one have clue as to the best way to approach tuning this machine. i ran so well for so long, i never dreamed it would give me this much trouble once i got it back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaudry Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 Something doesn't sound right, especially if you have run this hammer with no issues and everything went back together exactly as it was before. Can you post a video of the hammer in action and a full on picture of the whole front end of the hammer? I think what you are calling the pitman arm is actually the Tbolt toggle links that make the flexible connection between the toggle arms and the ram. The pitman arm is what connects the crank plate [ heavy flywheel with the name cast in ] with the toggle arms through the crosshead. The spring is held in place between the bosses on the toggle arms by tension of the adjustment nuts on Tbolt toggle links The picture at the head of your original post shows the crosshead on the pitman to be hanging way down . Is that where it normally is set ? On second look , I'm guessing that the crosshead is actually installed upside down. I think the ears where the toggle arms are connected should be down rather than up. The height of crosshead on the pitman is usually raised or lowered by loosening the clamp bolt to adjust the height of the stroke of the hammer depending on the thickness of the material being worked. If the crosshead is inverted then the stroke can't be lengthened far enough to hit hard at the bottom Once the height of the crosshead is adjusted , then the spring tension is adjusted with the nuts on the Tbolt toggle links so that the links are level or pointing slightly up toward the ram at rest. The Tbolt toggle links on your hammer look like they are possibly too short as well. Try pulling the toggle arms off the links and and the crosshead off the pitman and reassembling it with the crosshead ears down, reverse the ends on the crosshead clamp bolt so you can tighten it up. Put the spring back in with your clamp and tighten up the tension on the spring with the nuts so that the arms are level or slightly up . Raise or lower the crosshead on the pitman until there is about an inch between the dies at full down at rest and see how it runs . You will be greasy and frustrated before you are done but hopefully you will have a smooth running hammer and learned something in the process. Keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaudry Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 The problem with trying to troubleshoot these old hammers, particularly Little Giants is that they went through lots of different variations over the years with different guide and ram set ups ,clutch location , length of toggle arms and methods of tensioning the spring as well as the orientation of the pitman and the crosshead on the crank plate. At this point in history, some of these machines are intact and original and others seem to be put together with cannibalized parts from other machines or rebuilt with varying rates of success by people with a mixed bag of knowledge and skills. My only experience is with the two LG hammers that I have , a 1910 25# and a 1922 100##, both old style hammers with the center clutch , wrap around guides and hanging pitmans and the crossheads ears pointing up. I bought these rebuilt as new from Sid at Little Giant 20+ years ago, because I wanted working hammers to make money with right away rather than spend endless amounts of time getting them up and running. I still suspect that your issue with it not hitting properly is how either the crosshead and/or the pitman is oriented. It's possible that you think you put it back together just as it was , but the fact that the crosshead is so far down or almost off the pitman seems to point to it being either way out of adjustment or put together wrong. Do you have a picture of the hammer from before it broke and was running properly ? Maybe someone that has experience with a hammer of that style and vintage will chime in and set us all straight. If you can get hold of ''The Little Giant Power Hammer'' by Richard Kern you might get some further insight into the mysteries your particular hammer, but it is by no means complete , long out of print and hard to find. Good luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 The Kern book has a ton of good info in it. Well worth the purchase price. If you can upload a wider shot of the front of the hammer from the bottom die to the crank plate it would give a lot more to worth with. Also, the height of the top and bottom die and the length of the spring uncompressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 ABEBooks.com has several copies of Kern's book but they are kind of pricey. I think you'll find a copy to be worth every penny tho. Another suggestion is to contact Roger Rice at little giant and discuss the issue with him. He took over the business from Sid and I have found him to be very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 Blue Moon Press has the book new for 45$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhixson Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 thanks for the great reply info. i figured out what was wrong and have got the hammer working enough to finish forging my Christmas orders. Beaudry , you are right about the toggle links being too short. i loosened them up to match the pics of when i bought the hammer. and the hammer runs perfect. lots of strong force at the bottom of the stroke, and each strike is of the same power. this entire episode has led me to the conclusion that i have been running the hammer for several years with the nuts on the toggle link half way off the threads. to your point, i was calling the toggle link by the wrong part name. i never toughed the pitman arm or crosshead. the ears have always been up. ultimately i have to get longer toggle links so as the have room to double nut or drill and cotter pin. as it stands, i only have a few threads on the toggle arm nut holding the whole thing together. this has been quite the learning experience. i didnt know how good i had it with the hammer working great since i got it. the space between the dies is 1 3/4 inches when in the down resting position. the pics below are from when i bought it, before i bolted it in place. literally all i had to do was to bolt it down, oil it up and put it under power. its been a work horse since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaudry Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 Thanks for the update. Now we all learned something. I've never seen a pitman like that before with it clamped around the crank plate pin. What year is this hammer ? I did a google image search last night and found all kinds of pictures of Mayer Brother - Little Giant hammers with vertical pitmans, hanging pitmans, ears up, and ears down on the crosshead. These are wonderfully simple machines , but everything needs to be compatible and adjusted properly and balanced to work right,. It's obvious that there are quite a number of different configurations and variations on the theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 Whoa now- That's a Molock not a little giant! They were built by the Mayer brothers long after the brothers got ousted by the company they started. Altho they are similar they aren't exactly the same power hammers. The Molock's had a number of modernizations/modifications to the original little giant design that are discussed in Kern's book. In several places he makes suggestions to upgrade the LGs making them similar to Molock and Murcos for improvements. You have a really great power hammer one that is nearly bullet proof if you maintain it properly. There weren't nearly as many Molocks and Murcos made but the are worth their weight in gold. Roger Rice at Little Giant Power Hammers.com has many parts and dies that fit these hammers and can help you with some advice altho he and I have discussed some of the differences too. You might also want to get "Pounding out Profits" for a very little more info on the background of the Mayer brothers history. The info on the Molock and Murcos is scarce unfortunately, however since i found mine I have gained a little more understanding by spending a great deal of time comparing the LGs to my hammer. Congratulations you have great hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhixson Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 wow, great to know. thanks Fatfudd. i found a video by dave manzer that i bought a few years ago about tuning the little giant. it is loaded with good info. i believe this info will generally apply to my hammer. im looking forward to getting to know this machine better. i want to install a brake system for the flywheel. that will probably be in the spring time. ill keep you posted with some pics. thanks again guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H. Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Wrong spring?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhixson Posted December 26, 2017 Author Share Posted December 26, 2017 not the wrong spring. i contacted roger rice at little giant. he had some great info on the moloch hammers. it turns out the toggle link bolts on my hammer are just too short. the tbolts roger had made up were 9.5 inches OAL , while the bolts i have been using since i got the machine (almost 4yrs ago) were only 8.5 inchesOAL the extra inch gave me the ability to use a jam nut and all is well. the tbolts that came on the machine when i bought it had very fine threads and the nuts were hanging 1/4 of the way off the bolt. i just never realized how that was a problem untill the nut wiggled off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 It is amazing that i just found this thread, and i was replacing the tension spring for the first time on my 50# Murray. Like your Moloch, my Murray has some upgrades to the LG hammers you often see. Roger Rice is making up some keys and bolt down die blocks for my hammer as we speak. He said my hammer had very few hours on it, and thats after me pounding away with it for a few years. With that said, i havent forged with the new spring on, but before it was replaced, my 50# Murray has such ridiculously good control. It will forever be used as my blade hammer. Simply no replacing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Nice hammer! What is the date on your hammer's tag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Well the machine company that had it eventually to sell to someone else has 1975 on thr date with a machine# which is i am assuming a catelog number for their records in their warehouse, and the date it was brought there? Or it was bought new and they were a distributor of the hammers and the date 1975 is the date of manufacture? Maybe the 2052 serial number on the Murco tag means it was the 20th machine made in 1952? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 The tag screams 1950's to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 I was just wondering because my Murco has a serial number tag too and I was hoping if the machine Co tag had a date that could be a reference from your murco date to mine. Seeing as how Little giant bought out MURCO in the 60's that tag's date isn't really very helpful. Thanks anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 I need more info on this from books. I didnt realize Murco was bought by LG. Whats yours look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 Get the book pounding out profits, it is a great reference book on all power and helve hammers. According to the book LG bought out murco to eliminate the competition. It kind of interesting that LG didn't incorporate all the improvements that the Mayer brothers had made to the Moloch and Murco hammers after they bought them out. Mine is a small 25lb Murco in nice condition, here's some pics before I cleaned it up and put it in the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 Ahh so the tag serial doesnt reference a year at all. It did in a card catelog somewhere, forgotten in time though. I keep meaning to buy that book. Does jt contain info on self-contained hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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