jonboy79 Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 So i have noticed when it comes to bottom blast forges a lot of 'Black Iron' is used for the ash collector and the air intake, and when talking about fire pots 'Cast Iron' or very thick steel plate is used. Can i clear some things up as sometimes transatlantic words get confused. 'Black Iron' = steel pipe used for plumbing that is often painted black? 'Cast Iron' = anything castable that is a purer form of Iron, less carbon and other additives, has a higher melting point then steel, lasts longer? 'Malleable Iron' = also known as 'Grey Iron' Can this be used instead of 'Cast Iron'? Could i use 'Black Iron pipe' or 'Malleable Iron' and fittings to make a side blast tuyere, if water cooled or covered in clay? Is there anything else apart from the melting of metal, like oxidising, thermal shock etc, that takes place in a forge that makes one metal preferable to another? I will give a little insight to what i'm getting at, and that is a side blast forge, reasonable small, coal as fuel so manually aerated. But not to sure if i should use just a piece of black pipe protected with some garden clay to protect it a little and then when the pipe starts to melt down just push a little more in and re-clay, like the wash basin forge (simplest option). OR to make a water cooled tuyere from pipe and fittings. I've also seen on youtube a guy who made a stainless steel side blast tuyere that looked like a bycicle bottom bracket, that got me thinking but then thought the thin walled chromoly type of steel might not last that long even if water cooled. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Black iron is slang for not galvanised. The paint on it plays no role. I buy black SHS that is painted blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Most ungalvanized steel pipe sold in America has a protective coating that's black. The important thing to remember is NO plating, none. Galvanizing is zinc and the smoke can be toxic, fatal if you breath too much of it even. Things like chrome or heavens forbid cadmium plating is NEVER safe in or too close to the fire. Even grinding cad platted steel is exposing yourself to an insidious toxin and a true carcinogen, it will cause cancer in time. Bad stuff! Cast iron has a higher carbon content than steel and a lower melting point but it's not supposed to be in the heart of the fire so it's not exposed to temperatures hot enough to damage it. It has a characteristic of not warping when cycling between cold and hot. A not good characteristic is it does NOT like a lot of temperature differential, one spot cold and the rest hot can cause cracking or breaking you have to be careful with water when it's hot. A sprinkle or maybe even a drizzle is okay but dump a dipper on one side of a hot fire pot and you may end up with pieces. This shouldn't be a problem with a side blast but don't get careless. Using plumbing pipe and extending it as it burns off works a treat. A clay heat shield works as well though it's not terribly effective. making your own water bosh isn't against the rules and there are a number of good home build plans out there. No, I wouldn't use stainless steel near the fire. It's "stainless" because it has a high % of chrome in it with a heaping helping of nickle, neither are good to breath and burning them in a fire is a B_A_D thing. Don't worry about things like zinc, chrome, etc. IF it's kept away from the fire, heck lots of guys use plastic clothes drier and vacuum cleaner hose between their bellows, blower, etc. and the tuyere. The part of the tuyere that connects to the air supply is at a safe remove and while the fire is hot there's cool air blowing through it. Don't get too exotic scrounging things for your forge. I THINK chromoly steel doesn't have so much chrome in it it's terribly dangerous inn the fire. HOWEVER there are better uses for high strength alloys than a tuyere iron. Then there are the guys using things like bicycle hubs and such. Sure it can be made to work anything can be MADE to work and if you're the kind of guy who loves tinkering to make things do stuff they weren't intended for go for it it can be a lot of fun. However you want to build a forge not reinvent the wheel using old fishing lures and silly string. Keep it simple it'll get up and working a lot faster and with a lot less work. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 hi Jonboy today I will be at newark showground at an event and will have one of my bottom blast forges with me if you want a chat, am sending you my number by pm in case you want to contact me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy79 Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 14 hours ago, Frosty said: Using plumbing pipe and extending it as it burns off works a treat. A clay heat shield works as well though it's not terribly effective. making your own water bosh isn't against the rules and there are a number of good home build plans out there. No, I wouldn't use stainless steel near the fire. It's "stainless" because it has a high % of chrome in it with a heaping helping of nickle, neither are good to breath and burning them in a fire is a B_A_D thing. Frosty The Lucky. Thanks frosty, yeah i've done a bit of arc welding and know the dangers of the coatings they put on and yes always where a respirator when grinding any metal. Maybe thats why i haven't seen that fella carrying on with his SS tuyere then, i knew when welding the fumes are not good, but i thought that was due to the metal actually being molten and not just really hot, great advice. So then the KISS method then, maybe malleable iron pipe 2" with a 3/4" reducing bush, and 3/4" pipe running through the middle for the air, a T fitting at the other end with another 3/4" bush for the air pipe to come out of attached to a small water tank sounds doable then? Over here in the UK you type in black pipe and it's more malleable iron or galvanised that comes up in the searches so just double checking. 12 hours ago, the iron dwarf said: hi Jonboy today I will be at newark showground at an event and will have one of my bottom blast forges with me if you want a chat, am sending you my number by pm in case you want to contact me Iron Dwarf, once again i thank you for your kindness with inviting me to see you in action, i really appreciate that. I had my daughter today, and i think if i was building something other than a small forge to get started out on, that's portable and will only be used once or twice a month i would defiantly take you up on your offer. It has been a lovely day for it, i hope the event went down well. Many thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Good deal, it's good to work with folk who know the dangers or is willing to listen. You are going to fit right in here. Know any good jokes, wild stories, etc.? That sounds like a workable way to make a bosh. Remember warm water rises so have the water jacket on the bosh enter the cooling tank at the bottom. This allows the cool water to enter the bottom of the water jacket on the bosh and force the hot water out the top where it rises to the top of the cooling tank. When possible use simple physics to your advantage. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy79 Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Frosty said: Good deal, it's good to work with folk who know the dangers or is willing to listen. You are going to fit right in here. Know any good jokes, wild stories, etc.? That sounds like a workable way to make a bosh. Remember warm water rises so have the water jacket on the bosh enter the cooling tank at the bottom. This allows the cool water to enter the bottom of the water jacket on the bosh and force the hot water out the top where it rises to the top of the cooling tank. When possible use simple physics to your advantage. Frosty The Lucky. Cheers Frosty. I hope we are on the same page, just done a quick sketchup model of what i was thinking. Using it's own fluid dynamics to exchange hot and cold water circulation, hopefully. But the size of the water tank is the next question, i've heard by the end of a forging session people have said it's been boiling, i don't want to run to waste from a garden hose, but also i don't mind topping up every hour either, just don't want it to be too big or heavy, so was thinking 2 litres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Not what I was thinking but the principles are the same. Rather than having the tank above the T. I'd use through hull fittings so the bosh water jacket attached to the tank at the bottom, with the air supply pipe feediing down through the water from the top. Making the tank tall wide and relatively narrow increases the radiant surface and allows strong circulation. The air supply pipe feeding down through the tank would supply a little more cooling and what heat the air picked up wouldn't effect anything significantly. Think 5gl. steel gerry can shape and size. The downside to what I was thinking is it does't have much surface area to cool by evaporation. Your concept drawing has that beat. Feeding the bosh jacket through a vertical opening has the warm water and cool mixing due to turbulence right there. Having the jacket enter the tank horizontally means the warm water is flowing out against the top of the jacket leaving the bottom free for cool water to enter. No, 2litre is nowhere enough water, it'd be boiling in no time. I've heard stories about 5gl tanks boiling. Sure wish Sketchup still worked for me but I wouldn't buy a copy so the free version got . . . nevermind. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 25 litres is a more reasonable size and even that can boil violently so dont use plastic for the tank 13 hours ago, jonboy79 said: Iron Dwarf, once again i thank you for your kindness with inviting me to see you in action, i really appreciate that. I had my daughter today, and i think if i was building something other than a small forge to get started out on, that's portable and will only be used once or twice a month i would defiantly take you up on your offer. It has been a lovely day for it, i hope the event went down well. Many thanks again. mine are portable and small unlike the water cooled one you are designing, maybe you should take a look to get ideas for your own build Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I agree, look at and talk to people who use the things, I just drew a bunch of pictures when I thought coal would be easy to get here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy79 Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 20 hours ago, Frosty said: Sure wish Sketchup still worked for me but I wouldn't buy a copy so the free version got . . . nevermind. Frosty The Lucky. Hey good points, the thing i have learned so many times before when making things is explore all angles, research then discard ^^ I think due to the quantity of water needed this water cooled tuyere is not going to suit this design. Oh well exercise and lesson learned and no metal cut, that's a result any how. So the clay option might be worth a try, most simplest and at the cost of a few inches of pipe and a bit of digging why not. Frosty i didn't pay for sketchup it's the free version as i am not using it for work. I know about 5-10 years ago they changed their policy, but then i think google sold it. They still have free versions that work really well and extra plugins to download. The only problem is sometimes if you have designed something in a previous version it might not always work with a current version, but i don't think i have ever had a problem that i couldn't rework, i think it just mentions that it will be saved in the current version then you will not be allowed to open it in a previous version. I would be lost with Sketchup, i'm more of a visual person and can pretty much design something to the MM and foresee any problems. To be honest there is not a lot of stuff i do pay for if the unpaid version works well, but i will buy some software as i don't believe in cracked software, well that and also i don't trust the people that crack them and what they could have written in the code. Regards 15 hours ago, the iron dwarf said: 25 litres is a more reasonable size and even that can boil violently so dont use plastic for the tank mine are portable and small unlike the water cooled one you are designing, maybe you should take a look to get ideas for your own build Iron Dwarf, i dont suppose you have any pictures knocking around on this forum do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 will send you some soon, busy booking a carrier for a forge going out in the morning, you will have to find out how to see your PMs to see them and the last one I sent you is unread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy79 Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, the iron dwarf said: will send you some soon, busy booking a carrier for a forge going out in the morning, you will have to find out how to see your PMs to see them and the last one I sent you is unread Oh sorry, i did read it but in an email, i later replied to it in the post above saying how i appreciated your kindness, but then forgot to actually open the PM. I've just had a look though a few of your posts (not stalking you i promise) and seen the thread with the 'add on's' the sun visor etc, thats a nice little set up you have there, was thinking i would like something about half the size. Different approach for the tuyere/fire pit, i like it and i don't think i have ever seen anything like it. Kudos. Well no rush as i have ideas of what i want, then research then change the plan, so to be honest this has been of and on for a little while now, which i always find the best way to work. I will leave you as it sounds like you are a busy man. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 your forge needs to be bigger than the fire in it, I can get a fire from 2" to 12" diameter in my 24" square forge, if I made it half the size the sides would melt. I also now make a hood for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.