My first heat treat forge build.

[Outdoor gater]

As you can probably tell by my vocabulary and my status, yes I'm a newbie. I'm in the middle of my first forge build.  The OD and length of this forge is as follows. 18" x 10" with a door in front and a opening of 5" × 5.5" with a arch on top for maximum clearance. Also a landing for tool rest. On back side I cut a hole 4.5" × 2.5" for through and through work on longer pieces. Also with a smaller landing. I planned on placing a 2.5" thick and 4.5" wide that's just under 2 bricks long for a working surface of 4.5" x 14" on top of my 1st layer of 8# ceramic wool. Then my second 1" layer of wool will come around and butt up against remaining exposed brick edge for a smooth transition, hopefully not to cause any  bad circulation. Then after door and back wall is wooled I planed on a minimum of 1/4" thickness of refractory then a light coat of ITC 100 HT. After completing inside my heating space is around 5" Dia and 14" in length. 

*** Here is one of my concerns ***

It is torch placement???

My torch design is as follows. 

6" x 3/4" black pipe nipple with a 1 1/4" × 3/4" black pipe reducer on air intake side and a stainless steel 3/4" × 1" reducer on the nozzle torch side. Giving me a total length of 8" to 9" 

Propane gas tube is as follows. Inside 3/4" pipe on intake side is a 1/4" brass plug with a #57 size Dia hole drilled in end connected to a coupler then a 1/4" street elbow then a 1/4" × 12" long black pipe nipple then to a needle valve. Pipe is held together with 4 bolts on air intake side. 

Ok now like I mentioned up top is my concern on torch placement.  

Oh almost forgot.  If my math is right my cubic airspace to be heated is + or - depending on final refractory coat and ITC is 350 to max of 504 cubic inch. Like I said if I did the math right. LOL

Finally, I planned on placing torch on centerline of the length of forge in the 12:30 to 1 o'clock position. On the right because I'm right handed and that's the side of needle valve. I've read and looked and watched and looked again and again at other positions, on top, on side at 2 o'clock at 3 o'clock. Some say top some say angle helps with heat circulation and able to move in and out of flame to control heating of metal. 

We'll there you have it. I'm willing to take compliments, positive corrections and any other tips on this subject. 

Here’s a few pics to look at.

Thank you for your time.

Outdoorgator 

 

[StumpingIron]

I am at about the same stage as you with my forge except my firebricks are in and shiracrete. I am not sure if one torch will be enough to space the heat properly I think 2 torches will be better for your design but again I don't know to much. Thanks though for showing me how you are putting your torch in with the screw method I have been trying to figure out how I would place my torches thanks.

[Outdoor gater]

That's a good Ideal of having 2 torches. I have thought of that but don't know enough to consider the ideal. I'm not even sure of my math of figuring out the cubic inch is correct. But I have plenty of time to wait and absorb all the options and listen to smith's ideals and knowledge. 

[Latticino]

I get you at around 500 cubic inches, assuming some minor compression in the blanket during construction.

Suggestions:

1. Plan for two burners.
2. Design doors or purchase additional bricks to block off opening when not required.
3. Seal blanket with colloidal silica, or equal, before refractory coating.
4. Use split fire brick for floor, or high alumina kiln shelf, instead of full firebricks
5. Depending on refractory type you may want a thicker layer of refractory.  I have been using 1/4" and am finding it too fragile.

[Mikey98118]

You stated "My torch design is as follows. 

6" x 3/4" black pipe nipple with a 1 1/4" × 3/4" black pipe reducer on air intake side and a stainless steel 3/4" × 1" reducer on the nozzle torch side. Giving me a total length of 8" to 9" .

You didn't say what burner design you are following, but it is probably a typical Aussie burner, which means that in a 3/4" size burner you will need a 2" x 3/4" pipe reducer threaded on to a 10" or longer pipe nipple, with the forward threaded in cut off, giving you 9"of  pipe length beyond the reducer's smaller opening (inside).

[Latticino]

1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said:

10" or longer pipe nipple, with the forward threaded in cut off, giving you 9"of  pipe length beyond the reducer's smaller opening (inside).

Mikey,

 

Agree with all your other comments, as usual, but if he is planning on using the 3/4 x 1 SS reducer as a flare, as his post appears to indicate, he can't cut off the forward thread on the mixing tube.  On the other hand, it is questionable whether he needs a flare for his burner, but it isn't my design.

[timgunn1962]

The OP goes on to point out that he's a newbie, but the thread title is "My first Heat Treat Forge Build". This suggests to me that the intended purpose of the forge might be Heat-Treating blades, rather than forging to shape.

Outdoor Gater, is this the case, or have I misunderstood?

In my limited experience, HT has a very different set of requirements to forging, let alone welding, and a HT forge is likely to look very different to a more conventional forge. 

 

[Outdoor gater]

5 hours ago, Latticino said:

I get you at around 500 cubic inches, assuming some minor compression in the blanket during construction.

Suggestions:

1. Plan for two burners.
2. Design doors or purchase additional bricks to block off opening when not required.
3. Seal blanket with colloidal silica, or equal, before refractory coating.
4. Use split fire brick for floor, or high alumina kiln shelf, instead of full firebricks
5. Depending on refractory type you may want a thicker layer of refractory.  I have been using 1/4" and am finding it too fragile.

I don't have a issue with using 2 burners. I would rather have enough than not have enough. I will research the colloidal silica application  before  refractory and use. I have extra fire brick for doors. 

** I don't understand when you say split fire brick on floor. Are you talking about cutting brick long ways or something else?? **

I have room for a thicker refractory coat.

Thank you for the help.

[Latticino]

A split brick is a half thickness brick.  Since you are not a production shop you probably don't need the thermal mass of a full brick floor.

3 hours ago, timgunn1962 said:

The OP goes on to point out that he's a newbie, but the thread title is "My first Heat Treat Forge Build". This suggests to me that the intended purpose of the forge might be Heat-Treating blades, rather than forging to shape.

Outdoor Gater, is this the case, or have I misunderstood?

In my limited experience, HT has a very different set of requirements to forging, let alone welding, and a HT forge is likely to look very different to a more conventional forge. 

 

Heat treat forge can indeed be quite different.  If you are truly planning on just heat treating you will only need one burner, but need to be very careful with placement to limit hot spots.  On a relatively small forge volume (for heat treatment, not general forging) like this one I would consider indirect heating of some sort, depending on what you plan on heat treating.  As far as I can tell nothing indicates the design for a dedicated heat treatment forge other than the title.  I assumed he was not clear on terminology.

[Outdoor gater]

3 hours ago, timgunn1962 said:

The OP goes on to point out that he's a newbie, but the thread title is "My first Heat Treat Forge Build". This suggests to me that the intended purpose of the forge might be Heat-Treating blades, rather than forging to shape.

Outdoor Gater, is this the case, or have I misunderstood?

In my limited experience, HT has a very different set of requirements to forging, let alone welding, and a HT forge is likely to look very different to a more conventional forge. 

 

I would like to do heat treat and forging. Nothing to large or complicated to learn at first. Welding maybe later on.

5 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

You stated "My torch design is as follows. 

6" x 3/4" black pipe nipple with a 1 1/4" × 3/4" black pipe reducer on air intake side and a stainless steel 3/4" × 1" reducer on the nozzle torch side. Giving me a total length of 8" to 9" .

You didn't say what burner design you are following, but it is probably a typical Aussie burner, which means that in a 3/4" size burner you will need a 2" x 3/4" pipe reducer threaded on to a 10" or longer pipe nipple, with the forward threaded in cut off, giving you 9"of  pipe length beyond the reducer's smaller opening (inside).

My torch design is from rushfireforge  Jarem Rush

5 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

You stated "My torch design is as follows. 

6" x 3/4" black pipe nipple with a 1 1/4" × 3/4" black pipe reducer on air intake side and a stainless steel 3/4" × 1" reducer on the nozzle torch side. Giving me a total length of 8" to 9" .

You didn't say what burner design you are following, but it is probably a typical Aussie burner, which means that in a 3/4" size burner you will need a 2" x 3/4" pipe reducer threaded on to a 10" or longer pipe nipple, with the forward threaded in cut off, giving you 9"of  pipe length beyond the reducer's smaller opening (inside).

My torch design came from rushfireforge 

 

[Outdoor gater]

32 minutes ago, Latticino said:

A split brick is a half thickness brick.  Since you are not a production shop you probably don't need the thermal mass of a full brick floor.

Heat treat forge can indeed be quite different.  If you are truly planning on just heat treating you will only need one burner, but need to be very careful with placement to limit hot spots.  On a relatively small forge volume (for heat treatment, not general forging) like this one I would consider indirect heating of some sort, depending on what you plan on heat treating.  As far as I can tell nothing indicates the design for a dedicated heat treatment forge other than the title.  I assumed he was not clear on terminology.

Thank you for the split brick ideal now I understand. I may be using my words wrong sorry for the green. But when you are done forging a blade don't you use the same forge to temper or harden the blade or whatever you need to change the metallurgical forms??

[ThomasPowers]

" But when you are done forging a blade don't you use the same forge to temper or harden the blade or whatever you need to change the metallurgical forms??

Yes, No, Maybe!---Depending on a lot of factors---I have a friend with a custom built vertical heat treating furnace just for doing swords---hanging them straight up and down during heat treat avoid a lot of the noodle problems and it's inert atmosphere cuts scaling way down and the computerized controls allow for exact temperatures and ramping for the alloys that require that.

Sort of like "Don't you use the same car to run races, buy groceries and carry heavy loads in?"

[Outdoor gater]

6 hours ago, Latticino said:

I get you at around 500 cubic inches, assuming some minor compression in the blanket during construction.

Suggestions:

1. Plan for two burners.
2. Design doors or purchase additional bricks to block off opening when not required.
3. Seal blanket with colloidal silica, or equal, before refractory coating.
4. Use split fire brick for floor, or high alumina kiln shelf, instead of full firebricks
5. Depending on refractory type you may want a thicker layer of refractory.  I have been using 1/4" and am finding it too fragile.

Thomas 

Yes you are correct, but as a beginner. I plan on using the forge I have for treating my work also. Right now not only have no business trying to attempt such a project I have no desire to jump into.

[ThomasPowers]

That's why it's always useful to tell folks the details!   Ifn you had said and "I'm going to use it to anneal D2 so I can drill handle holes".  We could say "perhaps that's not what you want for that task".  Of I'll be using 5160 and so 1095---well that would be different...

[Outdoor gater]

12 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

That's why it's always useful to tell folks the details!   Ifn you had said and "I'm going to use it to anneal D2 so I can drill handle holes".  We could say "perhaps that's not what you want for that task".  Of I'll be using 5160 and so 1095---well that would be different...

[Outdoor gater]

2 hours ago, Outdoor gater said:

Seal blanket with colloidal silica, or equal, before refractory coating.

Latticino,

you said " seal blanket with colloidal silica, or equal, before refractory coating. " 

I take it that it's use is to keep blanket from soaking up water from the refractory coating? If so then It should be ok to use rutland cement floor sealer? It is 100% sodium silacate. That's all I could find as a sealer and adhesive that would also help to hold blanket on my door also with small finish nails welded on door as studs to impale blanket up and act like litle anchors to hold the weight of blanket, refractory and ITC 100.

 

8 hours ago, Latticino said:

I get you at around 500 cubic inches, assuming some minor compression in the blanket during construction.

Suggestions:

1. Plan for two burners.
2. Design doors or purchase additional bricks to block off opening when not required.
3. Seal blanket with colloidal silica, or equal, before refractory coating.
4. Use split fire brick for floor, or high alumina kiln shelf, instead of full firebricks
5. Depending on refractory type you may want a thicker layer of refractory.  I have been using 1/4" and am finding it too fragile.

Latticino, 

Ok I decided to go with 2 torches evenly spaced. Should torch location be at 12 o'clock,  1 o'clock  or horizontal at 3 o'clock?

 

[Latticino]

Please call them burners, for ease of communication if nothing else.  I like the burners to enter at around 1 or 2 o clock, approximately tangent to the inner wall of the forge. but have also used 3 oclock with good results, depends on what you want from your forge.

Yes the blanket sealant is to both limit the water the blanket would extract from the refractory, but also to rigidize the surface so there is less blanket compression when you put on the refractory material.  Search for refractory blanket rigidizer for alternates.

Note that there are many different refractories.  You want one that will withstand 3000 deg F, at least directly across from the burner port.  You can use Kastolite 30 as a reasonable insulator that is reasonably flux resistant, but Mizzou is stronger and has more flux resistance, and you don't really need the firebrick if you use it (it is a much poorer insulator and has more thermal mass, so it is always a tradeoff).

[Outdoor gater]

Thank you for the help.

[Outdoor gater]

Ok, Last week I've started on the inside of fordge linings. 2 layers of 1" ceramic wool using sodium silacate as a adhesive on door wool. Then several applications of InsTuff rigidizer on wool. Then started with satanite refractory layers. I bought 10 lbs and I'm half way there.  I've allready used 5 lbs I'm going to try and shoot for a 1/2" thick layer of refractory before I finish up with ITC - 100. Here’s a video of my first 30 minute cure burn. Before I did several 30 second then 1 min then several 5 minute burns between coats. I'm at 4th coating and still going, trying to get to 1/2" refractory wall thickness. Please  let me know if my burners don't look right. I'm willing to learn. 

thanks Gator