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Looking at a Mayer Bro's Helve Hammer


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Hello there, 

I posted a wanted add for a power hammer on CL, and one of the replies I got back was for a Mayer Bro's Helve Hammer, which I understand is sort of the prototype for the Little Giant. I don't know much about Helve hammers, so I thought I would seek out input from the better informed... 

I understand thr mechanical difference between a helve, and a trip hammer, but what I don't know is how the different design affects the work it does. I've used a 50lb Little Giant, and a 25lb as well, but never a Helve Hammer. The obvious thing to do would be to ask to go try it out and see how it works, but it is disassembled, so that's not really an option. 

The seller seems to be very competent, and understands what he's talking about, so I think he is very credible. He's asking for $1,700 which is within my price range. He tells me it uses a lot of the same parts as the Little Giants, so despite being an odd duck, it's relatively easy to maintain... He did say that it probably needs a new clutch pads, but otherwise all the parts are there, and it should be bolt together, shim, and go. (not all parts are pictured, just a few shots) 

The first question I'm sure will be, "what type of work do you want to do with it?" The answer to that is pretty general blacksmithing. I don't really have a niche, I make knives, and I make decorative items. So far everything I do is relatively light stock, but that's partly why I'm looking for a power hammer so the heavier work is more managable. I'd love to be able to make some hammers...

Does anyone else have some more insight to share on this? 

Thanks! 

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That hammer is an Easy Helve. I looked at one of those once and decided I was much better off with a vertically oriented hammer. The helve hammer swings the hammer head in an arch and is not adjustable for stock thickness. You will also not be able to use top tooling with this hammer only swages. The only advantage this hammer has over a vertical is when you are welding something like a tire rim where the vertical would be in the way. If you are only going to be drawing out stock and have extra floor space then maybe it would be worth having. I also think that hammer is way overpriced. These just don’t have the demand vertical hammers do and this one is sitting in pieces.

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3 hours ago, kubiack said:

That hammer is an Easy Helve. I looked at one of those once and decided I was much better off with a vertically oriented hammer. The helve hammer swings the hammer head in an arch and is not adjustable for stock thickness. You will also not be able to use top tooling with this hammer only swages. The only advantage this hammer has over a vertical is when you are welding something like a tire rim where the vertical would be in the way. If you are only going to be drawing out stock and have extra floor space then maybe it would be worth having. I also think that hammer is way overpriced. These just don’t have the demand vertical hammers do and this one is sitting in pieces.

 

Not trying to refute either you or the seller, just looking for some clarification... the seller stated that the swing COULD be adjusted for stock thickness, but that it was a chore to do. Usually meaning people set it at one place for life, and deal with it... I mostly work with smaller stock at the moment, so that wouldn't be the end of the world I guess... but, that lack of flexibility IS important to know.

I'm guessing you can't use top tooling, because it doesn't come down perfectly straight, so it wouldn't work terribly well?

I'll try to look up other pricing examples of helve hammers to show him and see if the price will come down a bit, and do a bit more research to see if it's a good tool for me... but I really appreciate your information, you gave me some real points to think about!

 

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I'm having a very hard time finding any information on this thing... I guess the seller was telling the truth when he said only 400-500 of these things were made. The only Helve hammers I can find information on are home made affairs, or giant machines of industry...

This is a really interesting link though....

http://www.abana.org/ronreil/Forge1.shtml#An

I think I could be pretty happy with this hammer actually, it's just a matter of what it's really worth...

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2 hours ago, matto said:

One of the parts pictured is not for a helve, it is for a vertical power hammer.  

Are you referring to the spring+arms? Because that actually IS what the Easy-Helve used...

DoneR2SmSm.jpg

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Gosh, looking at these things... I really want one XD They're so cool looking! So unlike anything else out there, yet so obviously related to the Little Giant... It really is a very simple machine. And I would imagine that having that manner of spring would help it give a more uniform striking pattern than most other helves.

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2 hours ago, jeremy k said:

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I'm a little partial to the Hawkeye brand, could be because I totally restored a 1903 version. I would like to restore an Easy Helve by Little Giant to though. 

Wow, that's a pretty little hammer! Have you ever used it? 

41 minutes ago, kubiack said:

If you look at the plates where the helve pivots there is just a single pin and hole; I don't see any way to adjust the hammer for stock height.

Isn't it adjusted the same way as the Little Giants, by moving the spring arms up and down the little vertical shaft on the back of the eccentric? (the left-most component in the very first picture I posted, has a shaft that sticks up into the little butterfly, has one bolt that tightens it around the shaft) My memory is fuzzy, but I want to say that was called a Dupont mechanism? 

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There is a small adjustment at the bottom of the spring assembly.  If you look at the pictures and look where the assembly bolts to the eccentric/crank, it has a stub shaft that goes into a bracket that the toggle links bolt too, and is held tight in with one bolt.  This is just like the adjustment on little giant/mayer brother hammers, except that your still contending with the arc.

As far as price/value go, with the bearing caps off, assume the whole machine needs new babbit poured. While much of this can be melted and re-poured new stuff will be needed to supplement, and in most cases it isn't cheap. Replacing the clutch is either wooden blocks or a leather belt, either way relatively inexpensive. Assume also that every pin hole and pin will need to be tuned by hand, either with a washer or totally re-bushed. Any slop will cause the helve to walk a little and strike a different spot. I also don't see a electric motor in the pictures, so there could be another added expense.

If the rest of the parts were there and the frame isn't cracked, I still don't know if there is value there or not at 1,700.  After totally restoring my 100 lb. LG, re-babbiting, ect.., I would negotiate that price a little. A running 25 lb. LG goes for roughly 2500 in my area, so based off that I would value this at less than half of that.

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Rotometals has Babbitt for about US$20 per 3.5 to 5 pound ingot; so not that bad---cheaper than silver at least!   I picked up some at a fleamarket once and have been sitting on it till I need to repour some powerhammer bearings and I know other people have just gone to the scrap yard and chiseled it out of junked machinery bearings. (I'd ask the scrap yard about if they had gotten in any in ingot form too...)

I saw a height adjustment in all the examples above; I do not know what you were expecting and didn't see.

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OK, yes you can adjust the opening between the top and bottom die with that. I guess I was not really clear with what I was meaning by adjustment you can not adjust the height at which the top die is square with the bottom die. It is limited to when the dies are touching at the bottom of the arch. If you tried to use top tolling like a punch the hammer would hit it at an angle and kick it back out at you. If you are going to do general work and only have one hammer this would be a severe limitation.

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Your right Thomas, but in the end, it all costs money, and most importantly time, and should be taken into account in the price. If you do have to re-babbit it the setup time, tooling, and daming compound are additional factors.

 

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3 hours ago, CMS3900 said:

There is a small adjustment at the bottom of the spring assembly.  If you look at the pictures and look where the assembly bolts to the eccentric/crank, it has a stub shaft that goes into a bracket that the toggle links bolt too, and is held tight in with one bolt.  This is just like the adjustment on little giant/mayer brother hammers, except that your still contending with the arc.

As far as price/value go, with the bearing caps off, assume the whole machine needs new babbit poured. While much of this can be melted and re-poured new stuff will be needed to supplement, and in most cases it isn't cheap. Replacing the clutch is either wooden blocks or a leather belt, either way relatively inexpensive. Assume also that every pin hole and pin will need to be tuned by hand, either with a washer or totally re-bushed. Any slop will cause the helve to walk a little and strike a different spot. I also don't see a electric motor in the pictures, so there could be another added expense.

If the rest of the parts were there and the frame isn't cracked, I still don't know if there is value there or not at 1,700.  After totally restoring my 100 lb. LG, re-babbiting, ect.., I would negotiate that price a little. A running 25 lb. LG goes for roughly 2500 in my area, so based off that I would value this at less than half of that.

Good to know thank you! I've never done work with babbit, but I have a friend who has a good deal of experience working on his Little Giants who would be more than happy to help if I need it. 

You are correct, there is no motor, it has never been hooked up to anythong but the original line shaft. I have a literal pile of electric motors though, so I'm not concerned about that.... 

 

I do have a motor related question though, does the HP of the motor really effect a power hammer much? My aforementioned friend uses a little half-horse motor on his 25lb, and I think a 1/2 horse on his 50lb little giant as well, and they seem to work fine? I have a 2 horse motor I had earmarked for my 1890s 30" bandsaw, but I think I'm going to sell that saw, so it could easily find its way onto the helve instead if it needs a bigger motor... 

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If everything is right, they last basically forever. They have shims in them just like a power hammer or piece of equipment for wear. A lot of the ones we do are blocks that have been apart for eons, and the owner just wants new bearings, blocks that have overheated or have been run dry, or blocks that have been line bored with old wore out tools and the timing gear alignment is off. The model T's actually have better Babbitt in them then model A's becuase the A's have bigger journals in them, like grade 3.

Funny fact: when drossing off the babbitt with a wood paint stick, the stick will vibrate like crazy in your hand around 900 degrees, which is a good indication its ready to pour.

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On 7/29/2016 at 6:08 AM, jeremy k said:

DSCN2305.jpg

I'm a little partial to the Hawkeye brand, could be because I totally restored a 1903 version. I would like to restore an Easy Helve by Little Giant to though. 

Actually, here's a question for you then... If you stumbled onto a working, good conditioned Easy Helve that you wanted to restore, what would you be willing to pay for it? I'm just trying to get a ballpark on what the thing is actually worth...

 

I'm talking with the seller about trading some of the extra junk I've got laying around, so maybe that will help...

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