dps9999 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Hey guys so i have my first attempt at damascus or pattern steel billet and i want to make a knife. There is not enough of it to forge a tang so i was going to weld one on. So i know how to do MIG/Flux core weld. I am by no means a expert my welds dont look pretty but they do stick. I figured if i just weld it, it will be a lil bumpy (as most of my welds are) (again i taught my self and still learning). and grinding them real smooth taking away all that material with weaken the weld. On another site i was given advice to braze it on instead of welding. So i went and got a few different rods from home depot and also check the other little hard ware store by me and they had the same stuff as home depot ( i put links below for each type of rod i got, i figured that be better so you guys know exactly what i am talking about). Then i was told these rods are not strong enough and to use the 64% silver wire....i cant find (unless i buy $200 worth of it wich i do not have) i picked up 15% silver rods figured might be better than nothing (also a link below) on the companies site it says they are for copper to copper to . so now i am kinda stumped wich one of these rods should i use? Then i came across brazing vs braze welding page. What i get from that is brazing will get sucked down into the seam or crack but braze welding stays on the surface like regular welding well if that is the case can you braze weld ontop of a braze? and how do you control wether the filler gets sucked into the seam or not? Guys any advice would really be appreciated right now! oh also i do not have a oxy/acetylene torch I do have a oxy/map gas torch (wich is surprisingly strong i have played around brazing scrap and cutting steel i cut through 1/4 in thick steel plate no problem) THANKS GUYS! RODS I HAVE http://silfos.com/products/catalog/Sil-Fos-15-Silvaloy-15-28-Rods-p-150.html silver ones http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-WB5-Bronze-Flux-Coated-Brazing-and-Welding-Rods-334490/203710172 bernzomatic bronze http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-1-8-in-Flux-Coated-Brazing-Rods-1-lb-tube-KH515/202715833 lincoln electric bronze http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-AL3-Aluminum-Brazing-and-Welding-Rods-334491/203710179 bernzomatic aluminum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 arc weld and then forge it to size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I do what Thomas posted, and explained in the knife making section. The problem of brazing is how to harden it after. those temps will melt the braze. Conversly if you HT first you ruin that with the braze after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Always think of brazing as gluing--that is, you need some sort of proper structural joint to the first place. A simple butt joint might "glue" but it will be weak and a poor substitute for a properly overlapped brazed joint. Welding on the other hand will end up stronger than the parent material if done properly. Lots more heat input to screw the product up though. In any case, turn this around to be opportunity rather than scrambling to fix a shortcoming. Can you do a split piece overlapping the blade which becomes part of/enhances the design for instance? A strongback on the blade that transitions to a tang which enhances the design? A bolster/tang set-up that overlaps the butt end of the blade and adds to the visual appeal? Think about it for a while and you might be able to come up with a solution that is actually a design improvement. Most of those would work with even a brass brazing rod, cleaned up, showing a little golden color at the joint. There are similar inexpensive brazing rods that have a high zinc content which remain "silver" colored and have a high tensile. I just checked mine and they run 70,000 psi. Talk to the actual guy at the counter of a true welding supply house (every town has em). They'll have suggestion on the best rod...and often sell a stick at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Some medieval swords had mild steel (well wrought iron) tangs welded to the higher carbon blades, even some of the wootz and pattern welded blades. I tend to make small knives from the ends of my billets and push any cruft into the tang area and if it's really bad I have been known to run a rod up and down it. These are not sold but are shop blades, camping knives, gifts to the kids, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 alright thanks guys.. i did not even think of heat treating!!!! that would deffinitly melt the braze any way thanks for that one! also this whole thing started with me doubting being able to mig or flux core weld it with good strength with out the "bumpy bead" thats what i call it anyway some times my welds come out bumpy but not all the time i just welded 4 pieces of stock to make the outside of a picture frame ....i took my time and they came out good strength and looked real good. being somewhat new i guess i lack confidence with it some times so ill try worst case cut a lil off and try again. i have a 1/4 inch plate of mild steel, i have some 1080 amd 1084...i was going to use the mild cause i was told it works better for either brazing or flux core weld. i guess i could use either? by the way i have made a few blades but always made them with a tang as solid piece i never had to weld one on is the any type of joint i can make by cutting/grinding that will help the weld be as strong as possible for example some one told me for brazing make a "key" joint.... xxxxxxxxxx ooooooooooooooooo xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx oooooooo xxxxxxxxxx oooooooooooooooo thats would work well with brazing i think as the filler would get sucked into the joint but with weld staying pritty much on surface i dont think it would work good is there any othe type of joint i can make to help? thanks again guys oh forgot keep in mind it is a thin blade that might affect what i can do to manipulate a joint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Learn to weld; it will pay off in all sorts of ways in the long term. I paid US$40 for an ancient Lincoln tombstone stick welder and have never regretted it, remember penetration is needed not pretty. Unfortunately MIG is rather the king of cat manure welds and I can't help with that---with the stick welder I can turn up the power a bit till I get a better weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 i have a stick welder (somewhere) have'nt used it in years didnt even think about that i have been using MIG/ Flux core most of the time i find my self using the flux core but for some reason i seem to be a lil better at MIG i dont know maybe cause there is no flux to get in the way unfortunatly i am confined to the flux core right now no gas for the mig. But anyway between the fact that my brazing skill is 0 to none and like i said before i didnt think about th HT where the braze might melt so i am just going to weld it best i can. i was woried about it lookin like crap but i think i am going to cut a brass plate for each side of the full (welded ) tang and in the brass plate i am going to cut finger grooves but i think i can also use it to hide the welds. i just gota figure out how to cut this brass plate to shape with out ruining it. the angle grinder isnt small enought to cut the details, i tried a diamond wheel on a dremmel didnt really work good and tin snips just bend the whole thing to pieces when i try and get in the tight spots. if any one got any ideas on that let me know. one way or another it will get done this is my first time forging a damascus knife i am determined one way or another it will be done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 13 hours ago, dps9999 said: i just gota figure out how to cut this brass plate to shape with out ruining it. the angle grinder isnt small enought to cut the details, i tried a diamond wheel on a dremmel didnt really work good and tin snips just bend the whole thing to pieces when i try and get in the tight spots. if any one got any ideas on that let me know. one way or another it will get done this is my first time forging a damascus knife i am determined one way or another it will be done Bandsaw or scroll saw comes to mind right away, but even a hand held jig saw can work with the right blade if you sandwich the brass between two sacrificial pieces of masonite or plywood. You can also rough cut your pieces then sand or file to final shape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Also jeweler's saw for thinner stuff. Coarse cuts with a jigsaw and then file file file! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Also jeweler's saw for thinner stuff. Coarse cuts with a jigsaw and then file file file! A jeweler's saw also works well for guards and handles! Some of the pierced designs often seen on Japanese style blades can be executed with a jewelers saw. They cut on the pull stroke so guiding is easy and as precise as your vision. I've used them for antler, bone and silicone bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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