Indianer Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Hello all! I´m new to this forum, made my account some time ago but this will be my first question to you. First, as an introduction: I´m currently doing my studies in germany, and since my greatest interest is, from childhood on, the armour making, i use it as a counterbalance to the dry theory of my studies I want to learn it all, but for now i am working on a hauberg since this does not require anything i haven´t got in my appartment. My question is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgzQiO9liNw In the middle of this video the guy forges an elbow protection, he dishes it. My question is, if he would relinquish the use of heat, would this cause the metal to suffer from cracks in it´s macro- or microstructure, which are NOT removable by using heat to harden the piece after work is done? This is, beacause i´d like to know how much i can hammer cold on an armour in general So thanks in advance - glad to be here Indianer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 ArmourArchive.org.txt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indianer Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 So, isn´t there any data on it i could, by chance, read out of a table or a diagram? Of course it will depend on the metal, it always does. This is why i´d wish myself some lecture, a scientific analysis for example to refer to. And, what i still did not find on the ArmourArchive - will heat treating alone, like hardening swords, undo small cracks in the steel? I hope someone here is into metallurgy and knows, if there is some data/examination existing. Greetings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Ductility and cold forming is one of those subjects where voodoo is involved. There are so many factors involved that it's hard to give a reasonable answer to any specific situation. For example, in the press-forming industry of sheet metal, some items take a dozen or more pressings to get to the final shape using progressive dies: Intermediate shapes are chosen very specifically to work through the process and prevent cracking (assuming cold work from start to finish). Speed of the press also greatly affects outcome--some items like fast and some like slow. Great planning goes into the process to decide where the material will and can be thinned or compressed when designing the product. In terms of armor, think about something like a motorcycle gas tank--custom tanks are often formed on a lead bag by hammering or power planishing hammer with the addition of a shrinker and an english wheel to smooth and stretch the material in a slow and controlled way while cold to some fairly drastic shape changes. How far you can push it is a mix of material, voodoo, experience, skill, and plain old dumb luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indianer Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 So this sounds like i could never be assured that an armour created for jousting will withstand as it should. i wish there was some way to look into the metal, some x-ray related method or so. thanks for the answer Kozzy :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 There is a way to look in for cracks and defects---look up mangaflux. Not something sitting on everyone's shelf but definitely common in the metalworking industry. The actual magnaflux site seems to be overwhelming but they also have products that are not complicated or horribly expensive. They are not the only brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 No; heat treat will not correct small cracks in steel. Regular heat treating during working, (annealing or normalizing), can help to prevent work hardening from creating cracks. There is metric tonnes of information out there on how much deformation can be done between heat treating cycles. It is generally in metallurgy journals and textbooks. Most universities will be happy to enroll you in a material science program or metallurgy program and teach you this stuff. There are several methods of examining items for problems, (ultra sound, xray, dye penetration, magnetic,...)---most of them will be far more expensive than the items being tested. You may want to read the ASM's handbook 17 on non-destructive testing. As for knowing if your work will withstand the stress of jousting---how many decades of armourmaking do you have under you? You are not expecting your first items to be suitable for folks to bet their lives on are you? Did you ask the armourmakers over at armour archive who do make jousting armour for tips? I don't recall seeing it over there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indianer Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 Don´t worry, i would never let someone bet his live on my armours...not now, at least. I have never touched a sheet of metal prone for smithing I am working on maille, since there is neither space nor money nor time for actual smithing. These things can be changed, but what i really need is knowledge what to search for, and where to do so. My father did not even show me how to use a drill...never needed to do so. So i search for things and try to learn before i am even able to test it, but it´s okay...somehow i need to get started! I want to make armour because of the armour, not the use. This said, thank you very much Kozzy, and thanks ThomasPowers as well for your tips. This really helps me, and i´ll search for these things now that i heard of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Where are you at? Like blacksmithing; armour making can really profit by folks showing you the basics---then it's practice, practice, practice! (and more practice!) Working hot is quieter and easier on the joints and the ability to heat treat allows a lot more choices in alloys and weight. Have you seen the pics of the work being done by Ugo Seranno? One of the few modern makers I'd rank up there with the Renaissance Negroli family. Do you know any basic arc welding? A cheap Lincoln tombstone, (mine was US$40 and probably older than I am), allows you to make a lot of the tools/stakes needed pretty dirt cheap if you can visit scrapyards/fleamarkets. (Look for Halberds beginners tools over at Armourarchive for examples) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 ThomasPowers was right in his warnings. I guess I should have made that clearer myself. I assumed that this was mostly academic regarding learning what process and materials were available so threw out some stuff to learn about---but would never recommend making a product of any kind that (ever!) that was relied upon as a safety measure to mitigate risk of injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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