Dealing with clinkers?

[ThorsHammer82]

Glenn, I apologize if my statement came off a bit harsh. Like I said, I had a snickers I'm better. My complaint was more in frustration of a rough morning in conjunction with a off color response to the thread, as quoted above my statement. As many of you, and myself are aware there are many many explanations on here for any number of questions. I feel my frustration has more to do with people saying some phrase equating to "hey, go read it for yourself" without giving any real indication of where to find the answer they are looking for. I don't expect people to know exactly where an answer is. but maybe those with superior googlefu on this site can link to pertinent threads rather than saying "go search the site, this has been answered many times" or making a sarcastic comment such as "Why, it is almost as if blacksmiths of old had the same problems and found ways to deal with them". I know I for one have had issues locating information regarding questions. and have found that without knowing the exact phrase to search for I have to cast as wide a net as possible in order to find anything and than I'm searching for hours through threads that barely touch on the subject at hand or don't address the question I have to begin with. Personally being a father of three who works full time I don't have enough time to spend hours reading the site, and must resort to asking the question as it comes up versus digging for hours when I might not find what I'm looking for in the first place. 

 

 

[Rich Hale]

More of my thoughts on this,,I am over 70 years old and most certainly did not grow up with puters....I do not use them well They in fact may own me!

I learned by doing,,auto mechanics were later on aided by Motor or Chilton manuals,,early on trial and error. When I started working metal, There was no Iforge iron. Nor were there any folks local that would share info on the matter. Shop time is golden. you can spend time in here but not all the text will create skills that will move you along. 

I visit the site to learn...If in my early days someone told me where I could learn I went there and did that. Same here. If someone tells me there is an item I am looking for on this site I will find it....For me that is not easy. And,,for that matter if no one tells me something is on here I will likely find that also...lol.

I cannot tell you how to learn to smith or use this site..If you really want to learn you will. And here is an observation,,not an attack..For most things folks have posted in this thread for you to move away from being stuck,,,you have listed reasons they would not work for you. Perhaps a different approach ,,like let me turn these pages inside out and see wot is really here may actually work? That is all I can give you!......

[Glenn]

I have been researching a couple of unrelated, non-blacksmithing subjects for over two years now, and continue to learn. 

 

My approach was to visit as many of the sites on the subject as I could find. It did not take long to figure out which ones contained information that was useful to me. From there I tried to keep up with the new postings and the current discussions. When a reference was given, I chased it down and read both the reference and the entire thread. Usually that led to additional references and etc and etc. The search engine led to more information. Then I went into the site archive and yes, I packed a lunch and a cold drink. The research has been extremely helpful and put to use. 

 

The other subject was approached in the same way. I have read, researched, searched and reviewed the archives of several sites. That led to prototypes which had dangerous design problems (in my opinion) they did not mention.  Those problems were corrected and new prototypes were made, which work, but need improved. 

 

Looking for ways to improve things led me down a different design path entirely. Just tonight I spent a couple hours reading, trying to find information on maintenance problems I felt are in the system, without success. So now it is time to quit reading and actually build one, add my maintenance modifications, and see if it works, or does not work. 

 

The information on one subject was very helpful and has been put to use. The information on the other subject is questionable so I continue to research. 

 

Everything takes time and yes I have a family, a life, and a dog like most other folks.

[John McPherson]

I was not ripping into you or anyone else personally. I am truly sorry if it seemed that way.

 

If you get a copy of Richardson's "Practical Blacksmithing", you will find out that these same discussions were being held over 100 years ago, but in the form of a trade publication's letters and articles. Every third smith had a better way to fix a problem, and the major companies had catalogs full of new, improved blowers, firepots of every possible design, etc.

 

All of these "problems" were fixed a long time ago.

 

And yet, here we are, with brake drums for forges, RR track for anvils, and unknown scrap steel, recreating the wheel on a daily basis.

[Glenn]

John, in the days long passed, the blacksmith had to have decent tools as they were used for production, either as a business in the village, or to fix things on the farm. Either way the forge HAD TO WORK.  

 

Today it is a hobby. Few people depend on the forge to make what is needed as there is at least one hardware store on each end of town or a wal-mart within driving distance. Everything is down sized and prepackaged in single servings.  You can buy a single bolt if that is what you need. When was the last time you bought a 50 pound box of (all the same size) nails? And if you remember buying a keg of nails (all the same size) you deserve to be called sir, out of respect to an elderly gentleman. (grin)

 

Question: How much did a keg of nails weigh?

[ThorsHammer82]

John,

 

chalk it up to a bad morning. No apology needed from you.

 

I don't think we're recreating the wheel so much as we're attempting to make the wheel less expensive. Like Glenn said, for most, this is just a hobby. it's not what pays the bills, it's not needed to keep food on the table and the farm still working. It's not so much a lost art as it is a hiden art. yes there are still master smiths. but unfortunately they are few and far between and in far less demand than their knowledge and skill deserves. I honestly feel that it will be hobbiests that truely carry this trade into the future. Thats a sad reality. but it is what it is.

[Timothy Miller]

John, in the days long passed, the blacksmith had to have decent tools as they were used for production, either as a business in the village, or to fix things on the farm. Either way the forge HAD TO WORK.  

 

Today it is a hobby. Few people depend on the forge to make what is needed as there is at least one hardware store on each end of town or a wal-mart within driving distance. Everything is down sized and prepackaged in single servings.  You can buy a single bolt if that is what you need. When was the last time you bought a 50 pound box of (all the same size) nails? And if you remember buying a keg of nails (all the same size) you deserve to be called sir, out of respect to an elderly gentleman. (grin)

 

Question: How much did a keg of nails weigh?

I beg to differ I need good tools to do my forge work. I make my living at the forge I can't make a living with cobbled together junk.  When people transition from A hobby to a career in blacksmithing they end up with heads full of poor ideas that will hold them back also I don't know why we show people less then the best methods to do a job. Even a hobbyist wants to be able to do good work and wants good tools.  We should start by showing them the standard approaches then explain there are other ways that will work then explain that these are workarounds  and should be viewed as such.  In time they will need good solid tooling paired with the skills to use it.

[Glenn]

John, in the days long passed, the blacksmith had to have decent tools as they were used for production, either as a business in the village, or to fix things on the farm. Either way the forge HAD TO WORK.

My point was that when you think of the village blacksmith, you see a full shop of tooling. It was his business, and put food on his table.  You are todays village blacksmith, it is a business and puts food on your table. A shop full of good tools is a must, they make you money.

 

The hobby blacksmith does not know if they will like blacksmithing or not so any investment of money holds them back. Who is going to spend $500 on an anvil, and another $500 on a Buffalo forge just to test drive it for a weekend?  You can tell them they can get started for $20 with a piece of RR track and a brake drum forge and they WANT to get started right now, no test drive needed.

 

From there they can invest their money in better and better tooling, anvils, and forges so they can do better work.  It is a serious jump in ability with each new piece of equipment. Hack saws work, plasma cutters work even better. A two pound hammer works but a 50, 100 or 1 cwt power hammer works even better.  

 

Tim, we agree. We need to move them on up the learning curve as fast as their interest and their ability allows them to proceed. We should always provide them with the next step in learning, and do it in such a way they can and WILL succeed in their move to the next level of skill and expertise.

[DSW]

The hobby blacksmith does not know if they will like blacksmithing or not so any investment of money holds them back. Who is going to spend $500 on an anvil, and another $500 on a Buffalo forge just to test drive it for a weekend?  You can tell them they can get started for $20 with a piece of RR track and a brake drum forge and they WANT to get started right now, no test drive needed.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this idea 100%. I help teach welding and I frequently see new guys who are hampered because they want to start "cheap". The idea, like your statement, is that they aren't sure they will like it, so they try not to spend too much money at first. The problem is many times that hinders them from really learning. Is the reason they are having issues the result of poor equipment, or is it just that this isn't for them? Poor quality equipment frequently leads to frustration. Sure you can make do with almost nothing if you try, but are you really doing yourself a favor by doing so? I think with most hobbies there is a minimum investment that needs to be made. Exactly what that is though varies from person to person and that's what makes this very difficult to quantify. Sure anyone can set themselves up given say $2000 or more in gear, and some can very likely manage to find some real steals that can get them set up with similar gear for say less than $500 if they are lucky. Then there are some who just find enjoyment by seeing what they can make do with...

 

I may not do blacksmithing for a living, but my tools make me money. For that reason I look at things a bit different than some do. I view tools as an investment. My time is worth something and in many cases having the correct tool means I can move closer to my goals faster and more efficiently. I take the same view towards training. Money spent on quality learning is almost never wasted. In some cases that means holding off until I can afford to spend what I need to to attain my goals.

 

 

I also see a lot of people who want instant gratification today, and often want it cheap. Then there are those who think if they just keep throwing money at it they'll be able to buy their way to better skills. Unfortunately those who are patient and persevere are in the minority. Those who usually succeed are those who are willing to put in their "dues" and sacrifice what it takes to really learn. That usually means lots of boring repetitious work.  True craftsmanship is often more about patience and attention to detail than it is about money in equipment and tooling.

 

 

 

 

Ok I think I'm done rambling for now...

[Rich Hale]

Not sure we can compare machinery like welders and such with basic equipment to heat and beat metal...Recently in the forum somewhere are pics,,,maybe even videos of forging on the ground with a hole for a forge and rudimentary blower...Those a few more hand tools,, something for an anvil will certainly open the pathway to see if this is something to pursue or pass on to another whim. 

I am not a fan of that approach, but it can work,, I suggest seeking local groups and visiting others in your area. Seeing the at least usable equipment at work will do the same thing in a much better fashion. Newcomers that do that and are polite and keep questions appropriate and in tune with wot is being done....taking pics and writing down answer...may in fact be given a chance to participate with some help. As pointed out...this approach applies to those that at the most will be weekend hobbyists. 

And remember that we have repeatedly seen folks get the bug,,,spend a lot of money on good shop basics, and get discouraged soon as they have no skills to apply. i suppose wanna be welders are like that also...Of for that matter any of a large number of hobby's. 

This is a whole 'nother approach than with those professionals that make a living running a 'smithing shop..(or welding etc.)

They have to run shop like a business. Money wasted on poor tools is lost money,,,Upgrades carefully thought out may increase a pay check. Same thing when they invest time in new, improved or replacement tooling. 

[Glenn]

We should define the beginner, hobby blacksmith, and on up the line to all be on the same page. I think we are all trying to say the same thing.

 

We have somehow gotten off track from the original post, what is a clinker and what to do with it.

[Dan C]

Well stirring the firepot today when the blower was off did result in more ash going down the tuyere, and less clinkers overall, only pulled out small ones. I'd say there was better heat after 5 hrs than if I hadn't stirred it.

[Quarry Dog]

   It could also be that coal seams have inconsistencies in them.  1 bag of coal can be very different from another.  I've actually unloaded 2 bags off of the same pallet, from the same supplier and seam that acted totally different.  The first bag was unloaded in the classroom coal bucket and burned clean the whole day.  The other bag was unloaded in the instructor/working forge bucket and was so horrifyingly clinkeracious that it formed a 1.5" layer in the bottom of the pot while 2 other guys and I were bending 1" round into dead-eyes for a replica ship.  Somehow that clinker resulted in a 3/16" hole forming in the side of the firepot that ended up growing to be 2" around after 4 months and warped that whole side of the pot by the time it was replaced.

  I learned 2 lessons that day:

    1) Clean your clinkers regularly.

    2) Burning your work is not the only reason for the saying about "too many irons in the fire."

[Glenn]

This is one of several clinkers I pulled out of the fire pot over the weekend.

 

 

 

I was not burning the best coal and did scrape the bottom of the coal pile picking up some dirt and other impurities.  I knew it would form clinker so when it blocked the air flow, I just let the fire cool for a short while and hooked the clinker out of the fire pot. Drag the hot coals back into the fire pot, add more coal, more air and your back up and forging in a minute or so.

[ThorsHammer82]

Yup. thats what I was talking about. Thanks again for the help on this one gentlemen.