Any problem with "Blanchard grinding" my PW anvil

[blacksmithtech]

..........

[HWooldridge]

I have a bigger PW anvil (250) and the plate was about 3/8". It had a bunch of other problems so I replated with a piece of 3/4" spring steel and rehardened. I say this only for a relationship to size and plate thickness. I also have a 100 lb wrought "no-name" with a 5/16" top plate. It's a good anvil with a very hard face.

Anvils were typically plated with the equivalent of plow steel - about 60-85 points C so they should harden deeper than just the surface but they should also get softer as you get closer to the body because that area cooled slower than the material near the surface. I assume your anvil is nice and hard now because if the whole plate is gone (and that has happened more than once from a bad weld) then you are wasting time.

If you have access to a Blanchard and it won't cost much, if anything, then I'd say go for it but you can also do a good job with a big right angle grinder and a cup wheel. Use a straight edge and be patient with the material removal. It will probably take 2-3 hours to do but that might be time well spent.

[Shane Stegmeier]

I would be hesitent to get to excited about grinding off your steeled face, a little sway isn't a bad thing really, and can be quite useful. If it has sway then the wrought under the steel face has given some likely. A lot of anvils have been used hard, and some hold up better than others. I would hit it with a flapper wheel on the right angle grinder and see if just smoothing it out and rounding the edges doesn't make it more than nice enough to work with. Sharp edges and perfectly flat are all well and good to look at, but it takes more skill to work around them. I well used anvil that is still hard, but is rounded on most of its edges, and has a little sway give you extra options and you don't have to worry about getting a coldshut when using half faced blows. Flat faces and hard edges are actually pretty unforgiving of missplaced blows:-) I would suggest cleaning it up only as much as you need to and see how it works for you:-) Be a shame to have to ruin your anvil to find out you liked it the way it was...

[ThomasPowers]

Treat the face on your anvil like it was solid gold---a bit of polishing is OK but you would be throwing away money if you started grinding it thinner!

Peter Wrights did forge weld on a piece of tool steel, in fact the earlier ones may have *several* pieces welded on side by side---sometimes wear will show this. They also dressed the sides so the weld doesn't show as much as on some brands.

If you really need the *flat* for some reason, save the grinding money and spend it buying a chunk of toolsteel like an old drop forge die and use it for the "flat" anvil and the PW for the rest.

Thomas

[HWooldridge]

3/32" is not much over 10 inches but is quite noticeable over a 3 inch area. There is much merit in what both Finn and Thomas are saying but I have to say that I am particular about anvil surfaces and do not like any dip or sway along the length of the face. However, both of my anvils are very slightly crowned across the face and the corners are heavily radiused. In fact, the only place I have a sharp shoulder is back near the heel - the corners near the horn are probably 1" radius and gradually get sharper moving back. I dressed both of my anvils with a 9" grinder and sanding discs so was able to get a surface polished to about 220. They don't stay that way but develop a nice polished patina from use.

[Mills]

My little Hay Budden was used as a plow makers anvil I suppose. Most of the corner that is associated with a PM anvil is heavily chipped away. a couple of well meaning friends want to assist me in welding it up. That is a lot of welding and it won't get as hard as what is there already. Kinda like my hip, just cause it ain't perfect doesn't mean that different is better.

With that in mind, I clean some of the chipped areas a bit every now and then to when I am sure that I want them removed. Some have become great mini swages for turning small leaf shapes. When I need a square corner I have a piece of mild steel that slips into the hardy, which can be used for most anything including grinding a profile such as a square corner. For dead flat I would use a longer piece along the anvil for whatever you were doing at the time then remove. No need to spend a bunch of time or money when you'll build a lot of special purpose tooling any way. Might as well make this too!

[bruce wilcock]

leave well alone apart from getting it in the yard and with a flat pice of sand stone and water work over the face and pike,
thats all you should do ,,if you want a flat anvil, get some work out on the one you have and get it to bye a new one,,
i saw a Sheffield made wrought anvil ,totaly unused ,covered in tar and wraped in sacking,in a ironmongers store that was being pulled down,
we scraped off the tar and the face was not flat it was level but was around 1/4 ins roached ,also the only sharp edge was along the heel ,the flat anvil is a modern idea ,and made by men that have never worked on a anvil, and proberly easier to make

[HWooldridge]

I once saw a Peter Wright (2.50 cwt/280 lbs) in a collector's stash, which was little used, if at all - a pristine face with no work marks on it anywhere. It had belonged to a farmer who didn't like smithing so he stowed it in the barn but I also expect he didn't dress it either, so the look was very likely from the factory. The face was flat along L&W and all edges uniformly rounded to maybe 1/8" radius or less. The hardy hole edges were also radiused to about 3/8" to 1/2"r.

I have also seen and used a Hay Budden (350 lbs), which was flat along the length but slightly domed across the face and the edges heavily dressed to a large radius. This anvil was purchased new by a large professional shop around the turn of the century. This local family had 4 boys who all went into the trade in the 1920's and they did a lot of plow work but the bulk was done on a smaller anvil (200 lbs) that eventually developed a sway back. The smaller anvil disappeared but the bigger one was donated to a local historical site along with some period photos and shop inventory records showing property listings for accounting or insurance purposes.

In years past, I think factories offered a service to dress a new anvil the way a smith desired for his particular work. It would be interesting to look at old records and see what different people ordered for their trades.

[blacksmithtech]

..........

[Jim C.]

Blacksmithtech: As stated by others, machine finishing your anvil face is not a good idea. As originally made by PW, the face is not absolutely square, level, etc. with the base of the anvil. Neither is the base flat and level. If your machine shop buddy simply puts the anvil on the Blanchard magnetic base and grinds the top flat, you will loose most of the hard top plate (or all of it) in some places and only a little in others. I doubt that the original top was over 3/8" thick and surely some of it has been ground off or worked down in the past. Further you likely won't have much top plate thickness left to tie into if you start rebuilding it with welding rod after the grinding. If you are dead set on having a flat shiny top, do the welding per Robb Gunter's instructions before grinding. If you want photos and welding procedure notes, get my e-mail from Glenn or from the Saltfork Craftsmen web site (ABANA affiliate). Jim C.

[irnsrgn]

blacksmithteck, In reality, you don't need a perfect face on an anvil to do quality work. The quality in work comes from your skill in using what tools you have at hand, not in how pretty your tools are. A good smith can use almost any thing for an anvil no matter how poor a shape the tools are in. the same as a good machinist can take a well used or sometimes abused machine tool and still do quality work.

And if you are still intent on possibly admistering 200 years of wear to your anvil by flattening the face, have the machinist put the anvil face down on the blanchard and square the bottom with the top first.

modifing the quote at the bottom of your post;

What is left when the hard face is lost?

[blacksmithtech]

..........

[irnsrgn]

Sorry you misinterpreted my reply, but at least you did not grind away the top , emails to you in reply to your last post.

[Swamp Fox]

Every one of you has 100 hammers cause you had to try a different style. You have 4 post vises sitting in the back of the shop you don't use and more and the anvil you use and the 3 "backup" anvils.

Most blacksmiths you see with all the tools and toys have spent a lifetime of looking, collecting, and making thier owntools and toys. Many have had good paying jobs all their lives and are now retired with plenty of time and some amount of disposable income from the retirement package and investments they have made over their lifetime.

Others have taken an interest in blacksmithing and use it as a part time job. To make money you MUST have the tools. This justifies the expendature of part of the disposable income. When they sell 20 Tennessee Trools to a gift shop down the street, or put on a demo somewhere, they make a little more money. May as well get the big ticket tool now that they have the extra money, and the collection grows.

Make one pair of tongs a week. At the end of the year you have 52 pairs of tongs and many people will be envious of your collection of tongs. At the end of 10 years you have over 520 pair of tongs most of which will not be used, but you saw a different way to make tongs and tried it. Do the same with hammers, make one a week. Make each a little different and you have 52 different hammers in a year. Point is in one years time, you too can have a collection of tools and toys that is very impressive, and you made them all. Just takes making one tool each week.

Go to the auction and bid $10 on that post vise, you may win. Answer that ad in the paper and maybe find a 300 pound anvil for $100. You may already have a post vise and an anvil but are you going to pass up the deal? No, it will set in the garage gathering dust. As soon as you open the garage door, someone is bound to ask why do you have extra anvils if you don't use them. :wink:

[HWooldridge]

I used to subscribe to the "make a tool a week" theory but I now only make what I think I'll need in general use or for a particular job. I often rework old tongs to get a different jaw profile and may have made the original pair 10 years ago for something but if they are sitting and gathering dust, then they usually get remodeled. Same thing with chisels or other set tools that aren't getting regular use. I once had a very long hand punch that only tapered 2 inches for the working end so I cut the body in half, redressed the cut end and used the leftover for a rivet set. Both are still in use.

[bengomez]

Yeah same thing with chisels or other set tools that aren't getting regular use...

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aluminum plate

[irontanner]

wow i was just reading this out of boredom (no offense meant to any of you) and i learned a great deal in the process :)

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

This is exactly why I hate extended editing time. The guy got miffed (I guess) and deleted all his posts and now the the whole thread and the responses make little sense.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Thanks for clearing that up Nakedanvil, I thought Blacksmithtech was posting in Braille shorthand. :lol:

[ThomasPowers]

WARNING: Blacksmithing by the braille method is NOT a good idea!

[Sam Falzone]

WARNING: Blacksmithing by the braille method is NOT a good idea!

You could try it ... but you'll probably only do it ONCE.

[ThomasPowers]

We've *ALL* tried it at one time or other; just a lot of us lie about it...