Built my first gas forge!

[Harris Snyder]

Hi guys,

 

This took me way longer than it should have. I've done most of my work with charcoal in new hampshire where I'm out of the city. During most of the year, unfortunately, I'm right in the middle of Toronto. So I went propane. I just finished my humble forge today, and fired it up with success! I know the picture's terrible, was taken with a cell phone, but anyways, here it is.

 

 

literally made from some refractory cement, kaowool, and a stainless garbage can that i drilled holes in and then ripped open with pliers ( I'm low on tools in the city :} )

 

The burner I ordered from Thermal Art Design. Really happy with it.

 

I noticed while running the forge that the tip of the burner glowed red, and the band of temper colors moved up the burner about an inch and a half above the top of the forge body... Normal? How hot should the burner get?

 

Thanks everyone,
Harris

[Frosty]

Looks pretty good for a not running pic Harris. How long before the burner nozzle starts glowing? How deep is it into the refractory liner? The burners'll get hot, no way around it, temper colors will run an inch or two, no worries.

 

My first thought is how the propane hose is laying. Try to route it AWAY from the forge and not in front of the openings. There is a LOT of heat exiting the door and it'll burn most anything that gets close, sometimes a couple feet in front and above the openings.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Harris Snyder]

Hey Frosty. Thanks, I'll try to get a running pic, but its raining today and I work outdoors. The nozzle starts glowing in about 4 minutes at 5 psi, and its about half an inch into the 2 inches of kaowool. But good to hear that the temperature isn't a problem.

 

Oh gosh, I would never run it with the hose like that, its was just positioned that way for the pic. The pic was taken before it was lit or attached to a tank.

 

Thanks

[Frosty]

Hey Frosty. Thanks, I'll try to get a running pic, but its raining today and I work outdoors. The nozzle starts glowing in about 4 minutes at 5 psi, and its about half an inch into the 2 inches of kaowool. But good to hear that the temperature isn't a problem.

 

Oh gosh, I would never run it with the hose like that, its was just positioned that way for the pic. The pic was taken before it was lit or attached to a tank.

 

Thanks

 

My pleasure Harris. Your nozzle isn't very deep, is the Kaowool touching it? I've found I have to give a little space between my nozzles and the refractory. It doesn't need to be a space with free air flowing, just some room. If on the other hand the flame is burning inside the nozzle she's a gonna get HOT and fast. You'll get a little burn back unless you've got it turned up pretty high so the fuel air mix is burning outside the nozzle and the mix flow can cool it.

 

I don't use a "flare" on my burners, I just use a thread protector from the closest HVAC supplier. Being threaded Fpt I just dip them in a little kaolin slip and it really lengthens their lifespan. To many months up from a day or two. TAD burners have SS flares I believe and kaolin slip doesn't stick to ss very well. Buying a product like purpose designed metal shielding ITC-200 (I think that's the right stuff) to protect the flare is pretty darned expensive.

 

Currently I'm experimenting with a product called Zircopax ??. It's a high zirconia kiln wash and investment additive to protect refractories, metals and most everything else from really high temp conditions. I'll be posting my finds here, the stuff is a small fraction of what ITC products are and if it's half as good the blacksmithing world will be buying tons of the stuff.

 

Good to hear about hose placement but I just HAVE to mention it when I see something that's dangerous. It's really common for guys who've never worked with gas forges to underestimate how much heat blows out of them and put the gas hoses, fittings, valves, regulators, tanks, etc. in bad places. So, I mention it every time I see it.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dave Hammer]

Zircopax is a brand name for zirconium silicate.  Earlier this year, I put videos up on YouTube describing how it can be used, along with other chemicals, to line propane forges.  In the lining video, I apply zirconium silicate over rigidized thermal blanket, then put on a thin layer of refractory mortar, after which another layer of zirconium silicate is applied.  The sandwiched layering is used by a glassworker I know who builds glory holes.  A single layer of zirconium silicate can be used over rigidizer  in small forges.  It is an amazing refractory.

 

I will strongly caution though, that these are dangerous chemicals and you must protect yourself appropriately or you are putting your health at risk.  Using proper cleanup procedures are equally important also.  Please read the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for these products before using them.... 

[Harris Snyder]

No the kaowool isn't touching it. Maybe the problem is I'm using too little pressure.. it is a 1 inch burner after all. I will look into protecting the steel, thank you for alerting me of this. I noticed that the carbon steel rusted insanely quickly at that high temperature. I will look into the zircopax/zirconium silicate. Thank you both, and yes I'll read the MSDS. Being a student of physics rather than chemistry I have a (mostly rational) fear of chemicals that I'm not familiar with...

 

Frosty, I appreciate you looking out for me and pointing out the safety issue.

 

Dave, by the way, I've watched most of your youtube videos several times! They've been interesting and informative.

 

Thank you both,
Harris

[Frosty]

Zircopax is a brand name for zirconium silicate.  Earlier this year, I put videos up on YouTube describing how it can be used, along with other chemicals, to line propane forges.  In the lining video, I apply zirconium silicate over rigidized thermal blanket, then put on a thin layer of refractory mortar, after which another layer of zirconium silicate is applied.  The sandwiched layering is used by a glassworker I know who builds glory holes.  A single layer of zirconium silicate can be used over rigidizer  in small forges.  It is an amazing refractory.

 

I will strongly caution though, that these are dangerous chemicals and you must protect yourself appropriately or you are putting your health at risk.  Using proper cleanup procedures are equally important also.  Please read the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for these products before using them.... 

 

Dave: We didn't get ANY literature with the Zircopax so I've been handling it like a silicosis hazard. I don't know what I was thinking not looking up the MSDS, I'll do it now.

 

Will you be so kind as to link the Youtube video about applying the Zircopax please?

 

Thank you.

 

Harris: we look out for each other. <wink>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Harris Snyder]

Harris: we look out for each other. <wink>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

I know, man. Nicest guys on the internet, honestly :) Its an honor to be a part of this community

[HIGHSIDER]

That's a swell job, that you may have many happy hours using it!!

[jcornell]

Zircopax is a brand name for zirconium silicate.  Earlier this year, I put videos up on YouTube describing how it can be used, along with other chemicals, to line propane forges.  In the lining video, I apply zirconium silicate over rigidized thermal blanket, then put on a thin layer of refractory mortar, after which another layer of zirconium silicate is applied.  The sandwiched layering is used by a glassworker I know who builds glory holes.  A single layer of zirconium silicate can be used over rigidizer  in small forges.  It is an amazing refractory.

 

I will strongly caution though, that these are dangerous chemicals and you must protect yourself appropriately or you are putting your health at risk.  Using proper cleanup procedures are equally important also.  Please read the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for these products before using them.... 

 

Could you provide a link to the video?

[wpearson]

[Dave Hammer]

There is a series of videos about a forge I call the Super C.  My channel is djhammerd.  If you search, using the channel name, you should see all of them (forge build, lining, floor and doors and product sources).  I've made forges like this from both cylinders and square tubing. 

 

The lining video shows how to use the multi-layered refractories.  I have since just used one layer of Zirconium Silicate (over rigidizer) with great results.  One other change....  I no longer cement in the floor.  I just lay it on thermal blanket, so it can easily be changed out (like for using a separate floor when I forge weld).  I do rigidize the ends of the thermal blanket on the bottom.

 

ANH has a rigidizer called InsTuff.  I bought some to see how it worked.   Don't use that for the binder for Zirconium Silicate, it's diluted compared to what I recommend in the videos.  IMHO,  Colloidal Silica is a better product for this anyway (for both rigidizer and binder). 

[mitch4ging]

Great information. Thank you all.

[Dave Hammer]

Double post.

[Dave Hammer]

.Sorry Harris....   I didn't mean to hijack your thread....

[Harris Snyder]

No problem, thread wasn't that important anyways. I want to build a super C forge some day, but I wanted to see what I could do with what was lying around, and I've never had a propane forge before, so I built this.

 

Thanks everyone :)

[Dave Hammer]

Your forge will serve you well.   It's the same as I used for many years.... 

[Harris Snyder]

Thanks. Its been rainy so i haven't been able to use it much other than bringing a piece of steel up to orange the first day just to make sure it worked.

[hogallen]

Harris,

Try recessing the burner so that 1/2 to 1" of K-Wool extends byond the tip. Then form the K-Wool to create a flare. This will greatly reduce the tip temps. Also by applyong your refractory material to the outside of the tip of the burner will prolong its life. Drill your orofice with a #70 drill bit and then use higher pressures. Around 30 lbs.

 

I occaissionaly use a stainless forge with three 11/4" burners with great success. Burn back has not been a problem.

[Harris Snyder]

It will be difficult because the burner I bought has a flange welded on. It would also be difficult to redrill the orifice because the burner does not come apart. I'll see if i can come up with a creative solution to this. Also, I'm thinking about ditching the refractory hearth it seems to be just making the forge take longer to warm up. I'd replace the bottom with a second layer of kaowool.

 

Thanks for the tip on lining the burner tip with refractory. I will definitely do that. I will also try higher pressure. I haven't brought it up to welding heat yet, and actually haven't gone above 10 PSI. But again, this is after one day of working thinner stock, so i didn't need to. I guess i should have realized it could go higher, since it was so quiet compared to gas forges in all the youtube vids...

 

Harris

[Dodge]

Kaowool will make for a very fragile floor, IMHO, unless it's coated heavily with a refractory mortar or such

[Frosty]

Harris: Take a look around the gas forge section, there are a lot of burner designs to choose from. Not being able to take your apart is the first black mark I've heard about these.

 

Dave: I looked up the MSDS for Zircopax and it's listed as a breathing hazard and possible eye/skin irritant. With no "reportable quantity" it's not toxic, zero. There is a reportable quantity for the trace isotopes but it's such a minute quantity there is none for zircopax, you could us zircopax for plaster in your house without tinting a dosimeter in decades. NO, I'm NOT suggesting zircopax for plaster, it's just an example. <grin>

 

The dust hazard is persistent and serious enough to use good quality PPE, HEPA filter quality, all round. If you have a link to a MSDS with a reportable quantity, please post it.

 

I'll be applying it the way ITC uses zirconia; mixing it with kaolin clay. Kaolin isn't a high silica clay so is pretty resistant to base fluxes. I'd give your application a try but current hazmat regs. make getting sodium silicate a PITA or I'd be using it in casting media.

 

Thanks very much for the work and videos, very useful. Well done.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[knots]

Harris: Take a look around the gas forge section, there are a lot of burner designs to choose from. Not being able to take your apart is the first black mark I've heard about these.

 

Dave: I looked up the MSDS for Zircopax and it's listed as a breathing hazard and possible eye/skin irritant. With no "reportable quantity" it's not toxic, zero. There is a reportable quantity for the trace isotopes but it's such a minute quantity there is none for zircopax, you could us zircopax for plaster in your house without tinting a dosimeter in decades. NO, I'm NOT suggesting zircopax for plaster, it's just an example. <grin>

 

The dust hazard is persistent and serious enough to use good quality PPE, HEPA filter quality, all round. If you have a link to a MSDS with a reportable quantity, please post it.

 

I'll be applying it the way ITC uses zirconia; mixing it with kaolin clay. Kaolin isn't a high silica clay so is pretty resistant to base fluxes. I'd give your application a try but current hazmat regs. make getting sodium silicate a PITA or I'd be using it in casting media.

 

Thanks very much for the work and videos, very useful. Well done.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

Take a peek at this thread,  sounds very promising.     http://www.potters.org/subject119531.htm

[Dave Hammer]

Frosty....   I don't know what you are reading, but I suggest you read the following MSDS.

 

Zirconium Silicate MSDS

 

http://www.pshcanada.com/MSDS/Zircopax%20Plus.pdf  (This is one for Zircopax) 

 

This is part of the document.

 

PRTMARY ROUTES OF EXPOSURE:

Skin: No   Eyes: no   Inhalation: Yes   Ingestion: Yes

TARGET ORGAN (S) EFFECTS :

zircconium compounds-Skin, respiratory system

Silica-Respiratory system

CARCINOGENICITY STATUS :

The following compound (s) are listed as carcinogens by NTP, IARC,

OSHA or all-:

crystaline Silica ( IARC)

POTENTIAL, HEAITH EFFECTS:

WARNING ! DO NOT INHALE DUST!

This product contains small amounts of Crystalfine Silica. Crystalline Silica

is known to cause cancer and is associated with the cronic lung disease

silicosis. symptoms of silicosis include chronic cough, dyspnea, wheezing and

respiratory tract infections, such as tuberculosis. Individuals with

pre-existing respiratory conditions may have increased sensitivity to

crystafline silica exposure.

 

Other MSDS speak to eye and skin irritants. 

 

 

These are two other MSDS for zirconium silicate.

 

http://tamceramics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/TAM_Zircon_0612_MSDS.pdf

 

http://www.lagunaclay.com/msds/pdf/3rawmat/adry/mzircgm.pdf

 

There are other MSDS online that have varying descriptions of hazards.

 

I feel, as someone who is showing how to use products, a strong responsibility to EMPHASIZE any hazards (however small)  that may be known or documented.  Based upon these MSDS, I believe there is dangerous health impacts if this product is used without significant caution.

 

I worry about this because if we minimize discussion about the hazards, fewer people will take precautions....   and many people will take none.     I am not Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling, the cautions are documented.  I am someone who worries about people who will not take proper precautions and may end up with serious repercussions or cancer down the road.

[Harris Snyder]

I don't have any particular need to take it apart though, it's working just fine as it is! I've been experimenting more and more with the pressure and definitely have figured out how to work it. I'm not going to ditch the refractory floor after all, but I am going to put another inch of kaowool under it.

 

As for the zirconium silicate, tbh I'm already planning a better forge. The thing is, with not a lot of power tooling, you need a forge to make a forge...

 

I'm going to make a charcoal forge out of bricks and refractory cement I think, as well as another gas forge, with a proper shell and stand. But i'm not in a huge rush, I'm enjoying this one :) Had a good day of forging today.