Burner trouble.

[K.C.]

I built the Ron Reil EZ burner. I have another post but this is another project al together. I have abandoned the forge that post was about. Too big and too costly for me. I need to get things together better before I go so big lol. Back to the point. I placed the burner TDC. I stacked a row of fire brick (standard size) for the base, 4&1/2 high, and 9 inches deep and then 18 deep. I also covered the back opening. Now for the problems.. I had flames blowing out of the front six or seven inches and up at least 15 inches high. The burner would sputter and was not an even clean flame. The rail road spike turned an orange color and was extremely hard to work. (I'm no wimp guys..) It wouldnt get any hotter nomatter how long i left it in there. I did work it but it didn't seem to get hot enuf. It seemed ro get that orange color when it was just outside the blue flame.What am I doing wrong? This was just a mock up before I put it all together. Trying to work it all out. Any help would be great.
Thanks guys.

[Dodge]

Light orange siding toward yellow or darker orange siding toward red? (The latter would in deed make it harder to work!)

Did you build the burner EXACTLY to Reil's specs or did you perhaps change one little tiny thing?

Are you sure the gas orifice is pointed EXACTLY down the center of the pipe?

Are you using the MIG tip mod or simply the hole in cross pipe for the orifice?

What size is your gas orifice?

Did you debur the hole and even chamfer it slightly?

What size regulator are you running?

What pressure are you trying to run at?

What color was the flame coming out of the forge?

Do you have any pictures of the forge in operation?

 

I just realized part of your problem after doing the math. Your forge chamber is 729 cubic inches. Riel's burners are rated for about 300 to 350. You need either at least 2 burners or a smaller forge

[K.C.]

Just a quick update. I messed up my dementions lastnight before I went to bed. The ID of the chamber is 5&1/4 wide nine inches deep and 4&1/2 high. Then I changed the depth to 18 to attempt to controll the flames comen out. When the burner wasnt sputtering it was a beautiful blue. Orange and yellow flames shooting out of the forge. It was the burner is exactly like the plans drilled hole and the spike was dark orange more info to come.

[Frosty]

Orange and YELLOW dragon's breath says your burner is running too rich. What dia is the jet?  You may just have the pressure too high so the back pressure is hurting the air induction.

 

You should only have about 6" +/- dragon's breath with TINGED orange and NO yellow or flutter.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[K.C.]

The jet is a #57 drill size. I tried to use the regulator in as many different was as I could. It seemed to be most stable at full open. When I backed it off it would sputter more. The flames were BLASTING out of the front of the forge. I had to shut it down every time I removed the RR spike. The burner did have a nice blue flame when it was steady but the forge looked like an angry dragon trying to melt down the fire brick castle. And again the spike was so hard to work I pulled out a 20# hammer... Lol it cooled with in 30 or 40 seconds. Not much working time.

[Frosty]

Your reg is wide open? What kind of regulator is it? Do you have a gauge on it? There is a lot of variatin in gauges unless you buy the high dollar ones. what a gauge does for you is give you repeatability. You will be able to duplicate conditions reliably so don't get excited if someone says 7lbs and yours likes 5 or 9lbs. what you can do is hit the same mark for the affects you want.

 

It's been years since Ron and I talked burners, he burned out on talking about them. Too many guys just E-mailed him asking things he'd covered in the FAQs and general plans. Anyway, I don't recall the drill # he recommended for a 3/4" burner. I used a 0.035" drill and then started using a 0.035" mig contact tip. Ron and I departed burner types early on but remain good friends.

 

Anyway, how does a #57 bit relate to 0.035" dia.? I don't have my references at hand.

 

It IS a 3/4" tube burner yes? How long is it? do you have a flare of some sort? I just use thread protectors myself but if you have a tapered flare so much the better.

 

Anyway, we need the as built dimensions YOU used and pictures, I need to see what it looks like running, in and out of the forge if you tested it out of the forge. the real numbers of the regulator, if it's a BBQ reg, get a proper one 0-30 psi AND a gauge. some parts you just can't micky Mouse and expect good results.

 

One last thought about it being mounted TDC. Is it breathing forge exhaust? If so it's going to run too rich no matter what else you do unless you plumb in fresh air for it.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frozenforge]

A #57 drill is .043. Probably too large so the velocity of the stream is too low at lower pressures. You want the Propane stream to have a high velocity with a linear flow. When it is positioned correctly shooting down the center of the tube it will draw the air with it.
Having too large of an oriface it will take more pressure to get the air to flow leading to the rich condition.

Have you run the burner outside the forge?

Getting a venturi burner to work correctly you have to pay attention to the details. As Dodge mentioned even a burr on the oriface will have a huge effect.

[K.C.]

Ok, here we go. I did some experimenting tonight. I used my same set up but added a small fan blowing on the brick the burner was going through. Believe it or not it made the flame uniform. I used that flame to forge a better burner flare. I went from a 3/4 to 1&1/2 bell to a 3/4 to 2. Changed the 1/8 inch jet tube to a 1/4. #57 drill for the jet. Ten inch 3/4 burner tube. It blows a really nice blue flame without blasting out the front of the forge. Gets the metal hotter and stays hot longer. I am still tuning but was able to start forging a set of tongs. I wish I could upload pics from my phone. I don't have a computer. So far this set up is working great. Can't wait to see what it will be like when I am done. Thanks so much for all the info guys. It really helped me start to pinpoint some of the.problems. There were several. When I perfect my burner I will ad another to the forge and start turning out some neat projects. If y'all have any more ideas keep them coming!

[Dodge]

I have used and had good results with both styles of burners, however, IMHO, Frosty's style of burner, using a "T" instead of a bell reducer was so much easier to build, tune etc than Reil's but your mileage may vary. (Thank you for your wizardry, Frosty!! )  That hard spike is what is perplexing to me. Sounds like your forge is getting hot; dunno why the steel wouldn't. Sure its steel?? LOL

 

Still would like to see pics of forge. Is your bell the same as Reils? there are two types. The one Reil uses IIRC, has rounded or a bulged transition. They can be hard to find; at least in my area. The other one has a flat or straight transition.They are typically cheaper but seem to not allow as much air through because its a smaller chamber. I.E. Richer flame. The addition of the fan helping stabilize the flame makes me wonder if this is not what is going on....

 

Did I mention pictures would be helpful?? :)

 

Scott

[Dodge]

Your reg is wide open? What kind of regulator is it? Do you have a gauge on it? There is a lot of variatin in gauges unless you buy the high dollar ones. what a gauge does for you is give you repeatability. You will be able to duplicate conditions reliably so don't get excited if someone says 7lbs and yours likes 5 or 9lbs. what you can do is hit the same mark for the affects you want.

 

It's been years since Ron and I talked burners, he burned out on talking about them. Too many guys just E-mailed him asking things he'd covered in the FAQs and general plans. Anyway, I don't recall the drill # he recommended for a 3/4" burner. I used a 0.035" drill and then started using a 0.035" mig contact tip. Ron and I departed burner types early on but remain good friends.

 

Anyway, how does a #57 bit relate to 0.035" dia.? I don't have my references at hand.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

According to this site, .035" is #65

[Dodge]

Your reg is wide open? What kind of regulator is it? Do you have a gauge on it? There is a lot of variatin in gauges unless you buy the high dollar ones. what a gauge does for you is give you repeatability. You will be able to duplicate conditions reliably so don't get excited if someone says 7lbs and yours likes 5 or 9lbs. what you can do is hit the same mark for the affects you want.

 

It's been years since Ron and I talked burners, he burned out on talking about them. Too many guys just E-mailed him asking things he'd covered in the FAQs and general plans. Anyway, I don't recall the drill # he recommended for a 3/4" burner. I used a 0.035" drill and then started using a 0.035" mig contact tip. Ron and I departed burner types early on but remain good friends.

 

Anyway, how does a #57 bit relate to 0.035" dia.? I don't have my references at hand.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

According to this site, .035" is #65 drill

[K.C.]

the first picture is of the improved burner. 3/4x2 bell 10 inch 3/4 tube 1 inch flared to 1.5 tip 1/4 jet tube and drilled #57 jet. the second pic is the first burner that would only burn if i used the little fan on top.

[bikecopXXX]

I have used and had good results with both styles of burners, however, IMHO, Frosty's style of burner, using a "T" instead of a bell reducer was so much easier to build, tune etc than Reil's but your mileage may vary. (Thank you for your wizardry, Frosty!! )  That hard spike is what is perplexing to me. Sounds like your forge is getting hot; dunno why the steel wouldn't. Sure its steel?? LOL
 
Still would like to see pics of forge. Is your bell the same as Reils? there are two types. The one Reil uses IIRC, has rounded or a bulged transition. They can be hard to find; at least in my area. The other one has a flat or straight transition.They are typically cheaper but seem to not allow as much air through because its a smaller chamber. I.E. Richer flame. The addition of the fan helping stabilize the flame makes me wonder if this is not what is going on....
 
Did I mention pictures would be helpful?? :)

got any pix of the "frosty" burner with the T fitting? it doesn't sound very hot;)

 
Scott

[K.C.]

Did the pictures not show up on my last post? I have got most of the bugs worked out now. The bell was too small, the regulator was too cheap, and the burner tip was cruddy. Fixed all that and now she gets whatever you put inside HOT. Still wanna try a TRex burner. They seem to be pretty sweet.

[Frosty]

the first picture is of the improved burner. 3/4x2 bell 10 inch 3/4 tube 1 inch flared to 1.5 tip 1/4 jet tube and drilled #57 jet. the second pic is the first burner that would only burn if i used the little fan on top.forge3.jpgforge2.jpg

 

Your forge isn't getting real hot because it's half again larger than a 3/4" burner is really sure to heat. If you lose the bricks on their sides heightening the chamber it'll get a LOT hotter. Partially closing off the front opening will help too.

 

The flame looks good from here, good shape and color. the hot spot on the floor looks about right for the distance and size of the chamber.

 

Mike Porter pointed out another advantage to using a mig contact tip for a gas jet, the long narrow channel of the tip smooths the gas flow for a near laminar gas stream. A hole drilled in a pipe is more abrupt so the jet isn't as uniform or strong for a lower entrainment.

 

There are pics of my burner here but I don't recall where probably in the gas forge section somewhere. I know my "plans" are. Okay, here are a couple shot by a friend from North Pole while visiting. the first is me and the forge running.

 

The second shows the burners and how I have them manifolded together.

 

the lid is on a jack, it'll lift so I can move the bricks walling sections letting me make the chamber as large and as odd shaped as will fit on the table. The lid is lined with pleats of Kaowool coated with ITC-100. The brick is coated with ITC-100 as well.

 

That's it, the second incarnation of the variable volume forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

[K.C.]

I did loose the bricks on the side soon after I posted the pics. Much hotter! I really like the T idea. I feel like the gas and air flow will work much better. I need to find your plans. I'm still learning to navigate this site. It's different on the phone that a "real" computer. Lol.. I haven't owned a computer in... Well since I got an iPhone years ago.

[Frosty]

That explains it, I'm a PC guy and it isn't going to download to a mac anything. <sneer> It's there somewhere, I just don't know where, I have a copy here.

 

Frosty the Lucky.

[K.C.]

Hahaha.... Funny guy that Frosty... Lol. I think I may have found your plans on the web. Now I just need to reconstruct the burner. The T won't be a problem. I guess I can use the burner tube I have and just change out the top end. I run a set of oxygen & acetylene hoses from my Harris regulator to the 1/4 inch ball valve which is connected to the jet tube.. Was a little unclear how to connect the mig tip to the gas line on the T burner.

[Frosty]

The directions are unclear about how to attach the mig tip to the fuel line?

 

The critical thing to get right is keeping the fuel jet as straight down the tube as possible. To this effect I drill ad tap everything in my lathe but there's a jig you can make to keep it all aligned using a drill press.

 

Drill and tap the "T" 1/8" fpt but don't tap it deep, or the brass fitting won't seat tightly and it'll be impossible to get aligned. Next thread the 1/8" mpt x 1/4 flare fitting in the "T". When you pick out this brass fitting take the correct drill bit for tapping a hole 1/4"x28. the ID of the brass fittings varies and you want one you can just tap or chase with the drill bit. I use the drill bit to gauge the ID. Okay with the brass fitting in the "T" tap it 1/4"x28. Now screw the mig tip in from inside the "T". the last step is connecting the 1/4" copper tubing to the brass fitting, the other end of the copper tubing is connected to your gas supply.

 

It takes less time to do all this in my lathe than write it here. If that's too confusing let me know, I'll see about simplifying it. It's late right now.

 

Frosty The Lucky

[K.C.]

Thanks Frosty!

[Dodge]

 

 

 

Sorry this took so long to reply, bikecopXXX.  As your question was imbedded in my post copy, I didn't see it right off. I can assure you its hot :) Here is my version of Frosty's design. The T is larger than the 1" burner tube only because it is what I had on hand. I figured I could choke it if it was too much air, but it has not been an issue.

The method I used to mount the gas supply accommodates the gas tube I use on my other gasser so don't try to study it too much unless you want all the "why" and "why not" gory details :lol:

 

 

 

[Frosty]

What size mig tip are you using in your 1" burner Dodge? That is SUCH a pretty color for the inside of a forge isn't it? <grin>

 

This is a shot of my variable volume forge running one 350 cu/in section under one 3/4" burner. It's running rich because I'm heating to weld. That section is now suffering from a severely melted 3,000f hard split fire brick floor.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Dodge]

What size mig tip are you using in your 1" burner Dodge? That is SUCH a pretty color for the inside of a forge isn't it? <grin>

 

This is a shot of my variable volume forge running one 350 cu/in section under one 3/4" burner. It's running rich because I'm heating to weld. That section is now suffering from a severely melted 3,000f hard split fire brick floor.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Thanks, Frosty! :)

 

IIRC, its either a .035" MIG tip as-is or possibly drilled out to #57 or #58. (I have an arsenal of MIG tips I keep for R&D from stock to drilled out to about .05" or #55 drill remembering the smaller the # size, the larger the drill size.)  Also, if memory serves me correctly, and an FYI for anyone interested,  while .035" is equivalent to a #65, a MIG tip for .035" wire is actually larger than .035" so the wire doesn't bind while welding. My guess is that they are, depending on manufacturers, somewhere around a #61 or #62 drill bit or .038" or .039" respectively. Attached is a pic of the gas tube I described above along with the burner tube. I made it for my first forge and it turned out to become a "universal" gas supply. I use it in my blown gasser and just swap out the tip for a larger one from my arsenal ;)

 

 

Scott

[Frosty]

That explains things Scott. I was wondering how you were running an obviously well adjusted 1" burner in a forge that small without molten refractory spraying out the doors.

 

I run 0.035 mig tips in my 3/4" burners and the 1" gets a 0.045 mig tip and will bring 750 cu/in to melt your work hot. I usually pull my jets back till they're less than half way across the air intakes. The farther back they are the more they air they entrain till they begin developing turbulence at a point of diminishing returns.

 

Yours is so well adjusted because the jet is so far into the tube. It allows a small jet to entrain the right amount of air through big intakes. If you pulled the jet back and used a 0.045 tip it'd start melting the refractory out of the chamber at almost any psi that would maintain a stable flame.

 

I'm not recommending anything, I don't mess with stuff that's working so well. I'm just pointing out you have a BIG gun if you need one for a big forge.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dodge]

Thanks for the info, Frosty. That is good to know. As I said, the burner was made from spare parts. I knew I didn't NEED a 1" burner and I'm surprised it didn't get hotter. But your explanation of orifice sizes ....well, 'spains it! :D . I tried sliding the tube in and out until it ran the best then marked the tube at that point. (That is the other neat feature of the burner tube; tunability :)