So I've been hammering away getting a little better every weekend and after "showing off" some of my most recent work to a few people at my real job, my hobby has now presented me with an opportunity to make a few bucks for a small project.  A co-worker has asked me if I could get him some rail spikes (I have a source for LEGITIMATELY FREE spikes through a few friends at the TTC and CN Rail in Toronto) because he wants to put them in some poplar 4x4 beams and use them as hooks in his basement and I have a few questions.  

 

He wants to hammer them straight into the beams with as little modification to the spikes as possible.  I'm afraid he might split the beams if they're not tapered at all and I'd hate to see him damage the wood like that.  Does anyone have any experience with hammering them straight into a small beam like that?  Will his lumber be safe?  He wants as much of the 'shaft' as possible left visible while still being able to actually hang things from them (say up to 10 lbs) so I was thinking of not cutting them at all and just putting a small taper at the end so it goes in easier.  I remember reading somewhere that in general, square works better than round but I don't remember the source so I don't remember how much credence I should give to that statement.  Would he just be better off pre drilling some holes that are a little smaller than the shaft of the spike and then just banging them in there? 

 

He also wants a few bent at about 60 deg. so he can mount them flush on the wall and use the head as the hanger/hook so all I would need to do for those would be to bend them at the bottom 1/3 and punch/drill 2 holes in the shaft part. 

He also wants them all "finished" so I have to wire brush them and then put some kind of coating on them. 

 

Considering that my materials are free and my "time" isn't as efficient as a professional, I have no idea what to charge him.  He says he wants about 10 each.  Would $7.50 each ($150 total) be reasonable?  Is that too much or too little? 

Thanks!

First off, you are a blacksmith. That is far too little. You can make a goodly sum off of this. Charge an hourly wage. A GOOD hourly wage. Unless you can make one in 10 minutes, charge what is right. I would put a diamond taper on the sharp end, about 3 or 4 inches long. Then, have him drill a hole slightly smaller, and hammer it in. That should do it, I would bet.

Thanks Ridgeway...I wholeheartedly agree but the problem is that they're selling on ebay for about $8 each and there's another blacksmith selling them online for $75 each.  I agree with you that I should charge what is right and of course I want to make this profitable but with such a huge variance in pricing, what is "right?"  I don't want to undercut the entire field but I also don't want to scare him away with something outrageous.  I guess at $40/hour x 2 per hour = $20 each x 20 pieces = $400... I like that a lot more than $150.  If he reduces his order that just means I don't have to spend as much time working for him.  If demand for my work increases I have no problem upping that number.

 

 

 

I guess calculating it as an hourly charge and not a "per item" charge is a much smarter way of doing it. 

It is always a good idea to put a flat/chisel/screwdriver type point on any item being driven into timber, the edge should be across the grain,

 

The tapers (round or square) will split open grain in timber as you drive the item into place.

I have a shed out back that was made out of small telephone poles and rough cut 2x timbers. we used railroad spikes to attach the timbers to the poles. None of them split. They are pine timbers and i believe the poles are fur. Not sure how the poplar would handle the spikes though. After we drove the spikes in I tried to pull one out and couldn't do it. I couldn't believe how well they held. Then again they are designed for railroad ties and trains running over them. I would have him try it on a scrap piece first though. Just in case.

i dont know anything about blacksmithing, but if you create a wedge or taper the ends and make them enter the wood more easily, you are more apt to split wood. if i dont want to split a board im about to drive a nail through, i dull the end of the nail, i want it to cut through the wood instead of wedging its way through, and maybe rub some wax on it if im close to a knot, or the wood is really dry, wet is better. 

 

I'd drill a pilot hole smaller than the spike, wax it up and drive it. Shouldnt have to taper the ends of the spikes for anything if you pre drill. Thats a small post to be driving a spike through, if you dont drill, make sure you drive it through the grain instead of WITH (or between) the grain. The spikes shouldnt ever pull out no more weight being hung on them like you mentioned. Will the beam be mounted horizontal? or vertical? If horizontal, i'd pay attention to how he mounts it to the wall, be better if its supported like a mantle, instead of bolted to the wall, again, depending upon the total weight he hangs on it. JMHO

I charge based on $40US/hour and can turn out basic RR spike hooks in 10-15 minutes.  One advantage of leaving the shaft of the spike straight and drilling or punching holes for nail or screws is that the wedge end of the spike can be seen.

 

I'd suggest playing with some techniques like twists or making the end of a spike into a leaf or drawing out the end of the spike and twisting it into sort of a grape vine spiral.  Make a few and show them to your client.  If he likes them, great.  If he wants something plainer that is OK too because you'll eventually sell them.

 

By making a few of various types you'll get along the learning curve and get a better feel of what you can do in a quarter hour or so.  I don't think that it is fair to charge the customer for my learning curve time.  Once the curve flattens out do you know what an appropriate time/piece and price is. 

 

Timely,

George M.

 IMO your original pricing sounds pretty reasonable but maybe a bit low for the way that I would do it.  My approach would be to use the driven spikes unaltered.  I would pre-drill the holes in the timbers and then drive the spikes hot (not red hot... just hot enough to melt their way in).  I would likely charge a bit more and do the installation for him.  I'd pre-drill just a wee bit oversize of the square, so that the corners all bite and to just short of the driven depth so that the ends bite just a very little.   I am an expert as you might think... so that makes a difference... I would avoid driving a bunch of these in on the same grain line close together for instance.  Getting the heat right so that the wood does not char and yet the spikes drive fairly easily is important.  Maybe practice a bit since you are not yet expert?  Done properly this method uses the resins in the wood as hot glues and is permanent.  For super security or in cases where the wood depth/strength is suspect I might use epoxy or super glue and drive cold instead of the hot drive method.  I'd finish after installing on the driven spikes.  Note that the wedge end of the spikes is intended to drive cutting cross grain... if your grain is oriented the other way you'll need to alter the spikes appropriately (RRs have some both ways but one orientation is FAR more common).  You could twist or reforge the wedge in the other direction... maybe best would be to forge the wedges into square points that will just protrude into the bottom of the pre-drilled holes.  Pre-drillng minimizes the importance of the wedge orientation but I would still get it right.  After thinking all this through I'd advise bumping your price to about $10 or $12 per spike installed and finished... If you are somewhat experienced and efficient that should get you close to the $40/hour level.  

Wow, thanks for the great advice everyone. It sounds very counterintuitive to NOT taper the ends but the explanation I initially read along with what you are all saying about the taper actually spitting the wood and the square-ish point shearing its way through the wood makes sense.  I'd never heard of lubricating the spike so I'll make sure he does that too.  The spikes are being nailed into cross beams that are suspended over the openings to stalls similar to those in a stable but much smaller.  They will be about 4' apart which means I don't think I have to worry too much about 2 spikes spitting through the same grain.  I can't do the installation myself because the location is about 3 hours from the city (cottage) so I may just have to write out an installation guide for him and insist that he try a couple in some scrap to see what works best and also insist that he take into account the direction of the grain prior to banging these things in, i.e. make sure the wood he tests is going the same way as the way it's installed.  Either way, I think pre-drilling is the way to go. 

George, I like the idea of adding a bit of flair to them.  He said he wanted them plain but I showed him a simple S hook that I made with a single twist for a separate project and he loved it.  Once he sees it on a spike I think he might change his mind about wanting them plain. 

 

Bigfoot, once again it seems counterintuitive to drill a hole bigger than the size of the spike but since I'm not an expert I'm in no position to argue with you...but could you explain why?  Wont the arcs of the round hole be visible against the flat sides of the spike?  I would think that would look bad.  The spikes are 5/8" so what size hole would you recommend?  Initially I was going to go with a 1/2" hole so there was still enough meat for the spike to hold on to.  Should I use a 5/8" hole too or even bigger? 

I agree with the pilot hole, that may be the most important part with large spikes in a small post.

 

RE: Finish:  I like beeswax wiped on when hot, especially indoors

 

Regarding price, this seems to be an ongoing discussion in virtual as well as real life among smiths.  Although I've sold some items at fairs, and had a few "commissions" I won't be an SOB (Sole Occupation Blacksmith, RIP Grant) until I retire, if ever, but I am fortunate to know and be friends with a few prominent SOBs.  I understand their opinion, which is very much like that as above, you must charge the going rate that they (the SOBs) charge.  This is so the public won't shift resources to the hobbyist who usually has another, full-time paying job that can subsidize the smithing.  When I'm demonstrating with the SOBs, I price my stuff the same as they do (and realize that I'm only making ~$15-20/hr there).  However, I also realize that I'm no Darryl Nelson, and have no business trying to sell one of my animal heads for $1000.  When I've got a specific request/commission, I shoot for a more reasonable living wage, but am always willing to be flexible depending on the situation because I remember that for me, at this moment, this is my fun time (In fact, it seems to have replaced fishing....hmmm....), or if you'd rather, my apprentice-ship.   

 

Charge what you want, just realize the impact your decisions may have on others...

Hey Billy, that's exactly why I asked.  Although it's easy to just sit back and say I'll charge what I want because I enjoy doing this and I'm not a professional, and I don't expect to make a lot of money because I'm not a professional, I also totally understand that this has a very real impact on the people who actually rely on this trade to make a living.  All I want to do is price my stuff fairly and competitively so that I don't end up being one of those people who gives buyers the mindset that they can get stuff for 80% less than the going rate, forcing the SOBs to either drop their prices or just not sell their work.  It's really no different than selling your house.  If all the houses on my street are selling for $300K and I decide to sell my house for $200K even though it's worth $300K, all I've done is lower the value of every other house on my street - and anger all my neighbours.  Using that same analogy, in the case of the spikes, I just have no idea how much my "house" is actually worth. 

Maybe Im a little confused, but if he wants them "plain" but finished, then wouldn't it just be a wire wheel and quick coat of paint or clear coat...so an hour would knock out all of them easy if you are getting old spikes. I would predrill the holes straight for the first 10 and angle the hole for the second 10 and drive them half way in. There would be no blacksmithing at all involved for this and they could be prepped and installed in 2 hours time. 

 

Then for price if I was doing it for someone, I'd charge a price per spike initially, then think of the 2 hours labor...add them together and round up ($3.50*20+$10*2=$90 so anywhere from $100-150....I do basic work(carpentry) on stuff for $10 an hour for friends and family but even at $20/hr it would still be in that range). Blacksmithing may pay much better hourly, but if none is involved, its more of carpentry of putting in some hooks as spikes.

 

If you are doing something to the spikes, then charge your rate for the time involved (with consumables added in such as coal/propane/electricity) and add materials costs (spikes and paint)....that could add up to more depending on time involved in making hooks.

 

Keep in mind when you price work what your time is worth...me being out of work, $10 an hour for fixing up my uncles house is great for both of us as I would normally help some anyway and he is getting stuff done for cheap (but buying all materials). If I had a job, I would have to get similar pay to it which could be $30-40 an hour unless it was something I just wanted to do anyway.

Nut, the "plain" was based on the assumption that I was going to have to taper them into more of a nail shape so they would go into the wood easier but not add any decorative flair to them so that when they were installed they would appear to be in their original condition.  Now that I've decided not to taper them, yes, you are correct, heat, wire brush and coat.  I was planning to adjust my fees accordingly.

There is, however, another set that he wants that will be bent about 2" below the head so that the shank sits flush on the wall and the head protrudes out and acts as the hook (they will be hung upside down).  So I'd have to bend them and either drill or punch two holes in each of them (10 total) which is where the actual forging comes into play.  Those are the ones that will actually cost him a few bucks. So $100 for the "plain" ones and then around $200 for the forged ones is now what I'm thinking.

 

Maybe my initial question wasn't worded just right.  What I was trying to get across was that based on my lack of experience and the fact that me taking 90 minutes to do something that someone else could do in 30 makes it unfair for me to charge him for the full 90 minutes.  I was trying to figure out what a fair price would be for the actual product based on the time it would take someone experienced to do it, and not my actual time because at $40/hour, 2/3 of the cost is going to be simply due to my lack of effiency and skill.  I appreciate the fact that my time is still valuable and that it's fair to charge a little for my learning curve but not "full rate" - epecially from a friend. 

 

Does that make any more sense or have I made it even worse now?

Well if the spikes are really 5/8" I'd use a 3/4" drill to pre-drill with.  A 1/16" arc is almost invisible with the spikes driven in.  There will be plenty of grab on the corners.  You cold use an 11/16" bit also.  I often do his with tanged tools and fill the tiny arcs with Kwik-Poly which penetrates clear to the tang socket bottom.  Or I will use multiple fillings of my handle finish which is a strong acrylic.  With large spikes like this I would just leave them or putty in with wax or tinted glazing compound.  The extra strength of glue will be overkill and hard to get with the spikes horizontal (my tools I just tip up so that the glue runs into the socket).

I see what you meant now. That all sounds fair. Plus for some of us, we aren't use to thinking of the price in canada vs usa. ;)