Heat troubles in a odd forge.

[Agita]

I have a strange "rivet forge" that doesn't use a clinker breaker or tuyere like a normal forge. Long story short My smaller champion farm forge takes no time at all to heat up a piece of key stock,

but my larger forge takes forever. This is surprising because it puts out so much heat I need a pair of welding gloves just to take the steel out with tongs.

 

Just to be clear, I have the steel in the heart of the fire. It seems to lose heat quicker than with my other forge after I take it out. Same coal and/or coke. Enough airflow to put out a 48" flame from the crack in the door.

One of the only things that worries me is that the blower is mounted in a  way that it sucks in a lot of heat and smoke. Also I have put some firebrick inside to limit the giant inner space (none of the airflow is blocked, only the width is limited)

 

 

 

Some of the pictures I have are from when I first got it, I'm just using them to show the setup and strange air vent system it has in place.

The air blows through a 4" hole into what I will call a "slot box". There is a ash dump at the base of the pseudo tuyere. Don't think it would matter but I did remove the rust and  have painted it inside and out with 4000 degree paint.

 

Any ideas or help would be much appreciated. (or identity of the forge itself!!!!!) :D :lol:

[Ridgewayforge]

I would be uncomfortable with that set-up, for sure. THe blower just seems really ill-placed. Also, it seems like it would not be an ideal shape and air flow configuration for forging. Wierd forge, though. Neat, for sure.

[Agita]

Reeeeally thinking of putting a shield up to block smoke a and flame form entering the fan's air intake. (total thing weighs ~500#)

[Rich Hale]

A couple of things jump out in your text, maybe they are clues....Youis ay the steel is in the middle of the fire,,,,,maybe this forge needs a deeper fire and move the steel higher in the hot part. oneother item is the amount of air and I think they are tied together. You mention how much air flows throuight the slots. I guess you have too little fuel and too much air. Air in that situation can actually cool off the steel you are trying to heat.  

[Rich Hale]

Double post!

[Rich Hale]

Triple?

[Rich Hale]

Yes I know! 

[Robakyo]

With your blower pulling in the combustion gases, would that effect the efficiency or strength of your flame? Seems like you are recycling spent gases, so it is starved for oxygen. Moving the blower away from the exhaust would improve your results significantly. 

 

Robert

[Agita]

I have just got a new electric blower I want to try to hook up to it. Maybe it would help the recycled gasses issue. I'll also try to reposition the piece being worked on. I've made it a point to try to keep it in the exact heart. I'll limit the air too, hopefully later on tonight.

[ThomasPowers]

That forge was designed for a very particular task and so doesn't do well at other more general tasks; just like a Prius makes a poor anvil hauler. I strongly suggest you put it aside until you find a task it is well suited for rather than mess it up trying to get it to work for your tasks.

[Agita]

That forge was designed for a very particular task and so doesn't do well at other more general tasks; just like a Prius makes a poor anvil hauler. I strongly suggest you put it aside until you find a task it is well suited for rather than mess it up trying to get it to work for your tasks.

Would you happen to know what that task might have been? I've never seen a forge like it.  (I don't want to modify it or harm it ,  Its just too pretty to sit unused though :( )

[Ridgewayforge]

Agita, are there any markings on the blower? You can still make this a usable forge with a bit of tweaking without having to scrap its original design or having to make it unalteralby ruined. Have you tried just mounding the coal higher and perhaps making the tuyere a circle instead of the long rectangular tuyere?

[Agita]

Its marked Lancaster Forge and Blower Co, NO40, Lancaster PA, and a bunch of patent numbers. The top of the forge hood is marked Made in USA.

[ThomasPowers]

What are the patent numbers; we can look up those on line! And I have seen one like that before and trying to cudgel the little grey cells as to it's specific purpose... I saw a very nice blower used to distribute fertilizer on an old ground driven horse drawn implement yesterday outside a restaurant in Albq NM. Different gearing and used a square chain to drive the gear box, system made in TX

[Agita]

I'll have to look up the patent numbers when I get home. Around here (WNC) #40 blowers are the most common thing. I have one on a rivet forge, and every other on I see at sales or fleamarkets is a #40.

Never thought of looking up the number before. That's a good Idea.

[ThomasPowers]

Looking over it again I note the very long but slender tuyere. It was for heating something fairly light that needed a long heat. Would make a nice sword heat treat forge if you could work the entire blade through the hot zone.

[HWooldridge]

It looks like an old heat treating furnace. Before electricity and gas, the only way to take a heat was with solid fuel so there were many forge/furnace variations built. That would explain your comment about it generating a lot of ambient heat but not able to generate a high forging heat.

[Ridgewayforge]

Now, if the case for Agita is that it IS a heat treat forge, what can he do to maximize it as a forge and minimize it as a furnace? I would suggest plugging half of the long slotted tuyere and reducing the air blast area to a smaller section which would be a concentrated blast. I think part of the problem may be that the radient heat is tricking you, Agita about the internal temperature. Reducing the area of the hot spot and increasing the temperature would give you a deeper, more concentrated fire which would get large pieces up to heat faster and without the radient energy frying you to a crisp. Of course, that's me speculating. I take it that someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[Backwoods Blacksmith]

It looks like the air blast is too spread out.  Try blocking all but about 2 in square to concentrate your blast. Try brick to hold your coal and make it deep.

[brian.pierson]

All,

 

  Matchlessantiques has a very unusual tuyere for sale on ebay. I have been looking at it trying to figure out how it would work. The forge with the slots in its tuyere may be related in purpose. What does the bottom look like where the blower attaches? Also does the forge have an opening at the end? I could see the lid down and stock is fed in from the end. That would force the gases out the top. It looks like there is a hole for a chimney. Well enough useless speculation from me. here is the url for ebay.   

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIQUE-COAL-FORGE-TUYERE-IRON-Blacksmith-Anvil-/121034896197?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2e3df345

 

Brian Pierson

[Agita]

WEEEEELL ,,  I forgot to get the numbers. I got home last night around 3am. That's what I get for having friends. 

 

*Forgot to mention I can burn up or melt metal easily. (I get frustrated and leave it in for a while and crank hard. I've had mild steel burn up like fireworks or fall in half and splatter on the rocks((I do know melting metal btw)))

^ ^ ^ ^ now what sense does that make. Not a good heat but will burn up the metal? Just say 10 or so seconds after checking and having a dull red or half light red color. 10 seconds later of cranking, pull it out burning. :angry:

 

 

@ThomasPowers & @HWooldridge    ~~~   Heat treating eh? Like it a bunch,... even though its not practical to use normally.

 

@Backwoods Blacksmith & @RidgewayForge   ~~~    I will block up the back of the air slots to concentrate the air blast and pile up the coal. Sounds like a good Idea. Seems to be a common and sensible idea to try.

 

@brian.pierson   ~~~   The bottom of the forge where he blower attaches is a solid plate of cast iron with a 4" or 5" hole where the blower tube attaches. The air simply comes through a  hole, a cast iron box with 3 long slots sits on top of the hole and air filters through that. The coal in turn is placed on top of the slot box and rises up through a chimney in the rear. (although half the smoke comes from around the hinging lid you see). So it would be hard to change much anything without modification to the original mounts. I've already had to hunt down a hard to find bolt that was broken as well as taping a 1/2" round hole through the cast iron side. (Cleaning out 1000+ year old rusted threads)

 

I also intend to place a shield to absolve the recycled smoke/gaseous problem. As well as figuring a way to connect a new electric blower (I still need parts for) :lol:

                                                                                                                             Anyone know where a original buffalo forge rheostat for a 2E blower would be sitting?

[HWooldridge]

I'd wager the original use dictated that the work was simply placed inside the box and heated; the pieces may not have been covered like a typical forging fire.  Small dies, bolts, pins etc., could have just lain on top of the fire until at the proper temp to quench...ditto on tempering.

 

Just my two pence here but I think you have two basic options...either use it as for specialized tasks - or strip the blower off and fasten it to a conventional firepot and hearth.

[Agita]

mmmmmm, I might keep it around or try to use it like above, otherwise It will sit in my future shop as a nice forge beside others. I have many blowers. And a few forges. I was hoping for this one to be a nice option to avoid a brick and mortar forge. I'll probably try to find a house of my own in a year or so and I'd rather wait for permanence to go all out.  I'll just collect toys for now :D :D :D :D

 

I have this inside a shop now. nice chimney hooked up. I just can't do that easily with a rivet forge. :(

 

Sill gonna try though. I'm stubborn :rolleyes: *****edit******note****** ---> I don't want to destroy or hurt the forge , So no permanent mods.

[Agita]

First: Sorry for the double post.

 

     GOOD NEWS, I'm apparently an blatant Idiot. I got frustrated saturday and fixed my forge on accident. I had a fire going, had limited the area into about a 4" square with good fire but it still didn't want to heat correctly. I got mad and pulled out everything except the burning coal, spread out the hot coals over 18" or  so of the air box and dumped a bit of coke over top. Entire thing opened up and it worked like a charm...............

Got good heat, it only took 30 or so seconds to heat 10"or so of 1"round mild steel to yellow. 5 or 10 seconds to bring the heat back to the same level from cherry red. Simply amazing airflow. But if you covered up 4" of the face the blast disappears. I've spent the better portion 2 months choking the fire.

     I built a shield that blocks smoke from entering the blower; it works well. The only complaint now is that it looks like it will eat fuel and the smoke doesn't want to go up the chimney. What a fool I am for limiting the size of the fire. When I started I had 50% blocked and just got smaller.

 

Anyway problem fixed. Thanks for your suggestions!