Judson Yaggy Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I have one hammer of each style, each has it's advantages. The big thing I like about bolt on dies is if you are careful with your layout you can drill extra holes in the mounting plate and position the die any way you want. Not convinced however that bolt on dies would stand up to 3 shifts in an industrial setting like dovetails would. Fine for a 10 hours a day 6 days a week usage thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 You dont need to stand next to a larger hammer, in an industrial forge, working agressively on tough material to realise why the dies are not held on with bolts that could shear ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I had to come up with a method whereby I didn't have to hold up the upper die in my 200lb hammer (the smaller one no problem) to bolt it on because some of them weigh 35 lbs and lining up the bolts by hand while holding the die in the other to start a bolt is difficult to say the least. I had to rig a stop so the ram dropped within 1/8'' to say 1/2'' to provide a space so I had wiggle room while the upper die sat on the lower to easily line up the bolts. This is no problem with DT's cause you simply drop the ram onto the die give it a couple of licks with a hammer or do some prying and you can get a wedge started no problem. I don't think using bolts ever even crossed the old boy's minds.....If the system ain't broke then don't fix it. In the last 10 years using bolt on's I've never had a bolt shear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I think when Ferguson named this thread he meant to say 'bolt on dies' rather than ''flat dies'' and the term ''versus'' maybe should have been 'or' because he his on his own fence trying to make a decision on his upcoming hammer project not trying to answer the question once and for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason0012 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I would expect die alignment to be more certain and repeatable with dovetails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I would expect die alignment to be more certain and repeatable with dovetails You're right, but it ain't necessarily so...... When I first bought my Bullhammer it wasn't long before I started making dies for it. And try as I might, even though I tacked the dies together bolted up in the hammer before I welded them they never quite lined up again perfectly....I got to looking at other, older hammers and figured the ones with sow blocks had the advantage of moving the lower die in and out, problem X solved but I still needed to fudge a little from side to side sometimes. The upper die on bolt on's always remains static unlike dovetails which can be shifted back and forth a little. Anyway I went on to building a few hammers and built in what I call a sow plate which operates with outrigger coupling nuts welded to the anvil through which I put bolts that capture slotted flat plates welded to the sow plate. In and out no problem and for side to side I made the slots wide enough to give me about 3/8'' (which is plenty) side to side. Loosen the outrigger bolts, give a tap here and there and alignment is perfect.... B) ......If flat dies or combo's are a teeny out no biggie but I've made some closed dies and they must be dead on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I am the guy who said no system is quicker than a good dove tail and key and I have proved it many times. I have competed against air wenches and all. Most of the time the guy wil say wait wait I have to get my wrench. My hammer is always there. Speed in changing dies is really not an issue for most of us. the whole bolt on die thing comes from what you can make yourself, cheap. I have a shaper and a mill dovetails for me, if you have a drill and a welder go for it that is best for you. If you change dies several times a day you will start to wear the threads out after a while. I have worn out die keys, easy to forge a new key. Stripped or worn out threads are a little more trouble. My 4 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Speed in changing dies is really not an issue for most of us. the whole bolt on die thing comes from what you can make yourself, cheap. I have a shaper and a mill dovetails for me, if you have a drill and a welder go for it that is best for you. I agree, changing dies fast isn't that big a deal. Being able to make say a special texturing die (top and bottom) and have them online in an hour is what appeals to me. All those guys out there who are making their tire hammers and Kinyons etc would be hard pressed to do upper and lower dovetail receivers let alone shape the dies to fit em aren't necessarily cheap. The practicality and expense are just hard to justify for such a machine. Yeesh, I must be up to my 98 cents worth by now, nuf said..... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Macbruce thanks for posting the pictures of your bottom bolt on system. I will surely use this as I have pleny of dies that do not line up that well. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Macbruce thanks for posting the pictures of your bottom bolt on system. I will surely use this as I have pleny of dies that do not line up that well. Mark There is a rub here. You will reduce your headspace so make the sowplate as thin as possible.....no less than 3/4'' or more than 1'' I would say....The hammers I have built have always had them factored so they're 1 1/4'' min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have a system where I use a block under my die so I can make dies that use less steel. (like used axels or other found steel.) I will just modify how they are attached, I am too busy now, but it is on my to do list for after Chistmas. Everything seems to have it's tradeoffs, but this will really help me on some projects. When I get to it if I don't forget I will post a picture. Thanks agian Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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