Dave Hammer Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 This week I made a muffler cone for my Nazel 3B. Sometime in the past, it had been replaced with a flat steel disk with holes drilled in it. Most likely, the cone was broken during hammer maintenance or repair. In any case, this is one of three things I am fixing or changing to see if I can get the short light stokes the literature says I should have down near the lower die. I have already changed the leather seals in the lower ram guide. Later I will have the motor pulley turned down to get the BPM down to the 180 factory spec (it's running at 192 now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Looks great Dave! I would have slit that pipe then welded it hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Dave Wow that looks great, thank you for posting it. Do all the nazel hammers have that type of cone in the exhaust? r smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkunkler Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Great video, l hope the cone improves performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Did you notice any change in the operation of the hammer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Patrick Nowak gave me a nice forged Vee block that makes pipe forgeing much easier. Tends to reduce the tendency to make the round go uneven. Nicely done. Did it help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Patrick Nowak gave me a nice forged Vee block that makes pipe forgeing much easier. Tends to reduce the tendency to make the round go uneven. Nicely done. Did it help? Can you post a picture of it please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Sorry I haven't reported any results yet, it's been a busy week. I ran the 3B with the new cone for just a couple minutes after I finished it. It definitely changed the performance. The ram started down with shorter strokes. I had short strokes to (maybe) a third or more of the way down. I had to press the treadle more to coax it down further..., then the strokes lengthened again. By the time I had the ram going down all the way to the bottom die, the strokes were fairly long. Not full strokes, but almost full strokes. So, I made progress with the short strokes issue, but still had work to do. It was better, but not what I am driving for. Keep in mind that the cone I made is fashioned from measurements taken from a 2B, and my tower (not original either) has a different inside diameter. My plan was to make the top of the cone a diameter that would allow about the same amount of air as the 2B, and tweak from that point (changing the diameter, allowing more or less air through). I still believe that the back pressure there plays a significant role in the air management. I took the tower and cone off. At that point I decided to drop the ram guide and replace the leather seals. There was definitely an issue there (with the seals) and I wanted to fix that before I started tweeking the cone. I believe the seals were reacting badly with the oil and putting a deposit on the ram (I was getting brown gunk on the ram) . In any case, I didn't know if the seal issue was a player in the "no short stroke" issue, but I wanted to fix that problem before I started changing the cone. To shorten this story, I'l just say I took a couple days to get the seals changed (much longer story there). I finally got the ram guide back on last night just before dusk. Saturday (today) is a family activity day for us, so I didn't get to the hammer till about 5 PM. I installed the cone and tower and powered it up. It seemed better than before (short strokes further down, but not all the way to the lower die). SHUCKS..... HMMMM..... I'm going to see if it will clamp.... It did... and when I started to raise the ram back up.... guess what..... short controllable soft strokes... just in a different position on the pawl than I expected to find them. I shot some video, then it got dark.... More testing tomorrow.... and playing with the pawl and stop positions on the valve timing cam... This is exciting! I know I can get those short strokes now. Next is to get them where they are supposed to be on the controls (or change the controls). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Looks great Dave! I would have slit that pipe then welded it hehe. I thought about doing it that way Sam, but decided it would take about the same amount of time in the end. I knew I could get good results the way I did it. Dave Wow that looks great, thank you for posting it. Do all the nazel hammers have that type of cone in the exhaust? r smith I know that cone is there in the 1B, 2B, 3B and 4B. I don't know for sure, but I would expect it to be there in all the Nazel hammers.Incidently, I won't be modifying the pulley diameter on the 3B motor. I was computing the current BPM of the 3B using the outside diameter of the pulley and flywheel ( that's how I determined it was running at 192 BPM). A friend reminded me that I should have been using the pulley "pitch" position instead. A new calculation, using an estimate of where the "pitch" positions are.... is telling me that I am only 2.2% faster than the factory specification. If that is true, I can't believe that little variance would cause the issue I'm chasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 good to hear your making progress.... Keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Dave, congratulations. I was just watching Toby Hickman forge a pair on tongs on facebook and he has the short stroking you are seeking. He has a DVD on power hammer techniques and you can contact him at his e-mail: LCF@wildblue.net and the video apparently accompanies his abana article from fall 2011. Paul Beisler posted the snippet on Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Thanks John.... I didn't take time to work with the 3B today. Church and yard work took all my time. I went and got 4 loads (24 yards) of mulch. Unloading and spreading it about did us in (my wife and I). That covered about half of our mulch needs. We had to pick up acorns first. Some had started to sprout. We're going to need a new plan in about 10 years. Don't know how long we will have the energy to keep this yard up like we like it. I should be able to finish the yard work this week (that is... all that needs to be done before the bulk of the leaves fall (Caryol will be off to spend time with grandkids). When the leaves fall, it's another two or three days of work. I'm also working on a paper describing how to line a forge with a reflective (ceramic-like) surface over thermal blanket (similiar to some glass blowers glory holes). I talked about it a little at a demo I gave last weekend and promised I would send out a paper within a week or so. I'm not too far behind that committment, but it will be a few more days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Thank you for the update and good luck in the yard There is a small chance I might be able to get you measurements on a real 3b cone and muffler but not sure. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Thank you for the update and good luck in the yard There is a small chance I might be able to get you measurements on a real 3b cone and muffler but not sure. smith I would appreciate that more than you could know. This is what I would need. 1. The inside diameter of the top of the tower. 2. The inside diameter of the bottom of the tower (I believe it is a straight pipe from the bottom until after the top of the cone. 3. The outside diameter of the bottom of the cone. 4. The outside diameter of the top of the cone. 5. The height of the cone. 6. The size of the hole in the bottom of the cone (if there is one) If you're not able to get them...(R. Smith)..... Is there anyone else out there with a 3B willing to take their muffler off and take the measurements for me.... Thanks in advance... I shot a little more video today, but decided not to upload it to YouTube. I am going to put the plate back in and take video of how it behaved before the cone I made. I have video now showing the "initial cone dimensions" impact on the stroke. I am going to widen the top of the cone a bit and see what happens (and videotape it). When I am finished monkeying around with it, I will produce a video showing the "start to finish" changes and results. I think this will be more instructional than putting interim results on YouTube. I expect to get the video up before the end of this week. Like I posted before, I can get short strokes now, but not as I expected (I have to go to clamp, then back off to get the low short strokes). I do have short strokes for the entire stroke range doing it that way, but again, it isn't the normal treadle action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Dave, I took some measurements without unbolting anything yesterday. I hope it is somewhat helpful even if its not everything. The muffler is 22" tall, the lower 12" are parallel sides, the upper 10 " taper to a 2" outlet hole in the top. The top of the cone is 12" below the top of the muffler and the bottom of the cone is rounded with just a small 3/16" or so hole probably to not collect oil. The 1" blade of the tape seemed to fit almost to the very bottom of the inside of the cone and is about 22" down from the top of muffler. The gap around the OD of the cone and the ID of the muffler is 1/4"- 5/16", the cone is not exactly centered and both parts are just raw cast. Wall thickness on the cone is about 1/4" and as a guess the mufflers wall about 1/2" with a 6 5/8" OD r smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 R. Smith..... That definitely is useful information for me. You've confirmed I need to widen the top of my cone a bit. I have more than the 1/4 to 5/16ths clearance around the top of the cone. I think that area is the most significant to have true to factory specs. Also, what you have described tells me I should try narrowing the opening of the top of the tower a little. I can modify what I currently have toward your measurements easily.. The 2B cone I did get a look at had a larger hole in the bottom of the cone, so I matched it. I will reduce the size of that opening more toward what you describe. What you describe does seem more like an oil release than a significant air management port . Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Dave, Glad to help. You are doing us nazel owners a big service with the info you put out. I will have to look in a 2b and see if it looks similar, never even thought about what was in there before you asked. Have you ever changed the oil in your main bearings or is it just keep adding new? smith out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Have you ever changed the oil in your main bearings or is it just keep adding new? smith out I haven't changed the oil...., I just keep adding new with the Manzel pump. I currently use 30wt non-detergent for everything. Some folks in industrial plants use commercial cylinder oil for the ram and compressor cylinders.... and use 30wt non-detergent for the bearings. They use a pump for the cylinder oil... and drip bottles for the bearings. I assembled my 3B only about two years ago (with the exception of the valves, it was completely disassembled ) and I have to admit.... it doesn't get used as much as it would in a production shop, so I don't think my oil has any issues yet. My goal is to feed enough oil to the main bearings so that the little reservior in the bearing housing (under the actual bearing) stays full, or is actually running over as I pump those few drops a minute in (so the ring that feeds oil up to the top of the bearing is always in a full bath of oil). The area (in the hammer frame) under the bearings is also a reservior that you need to monitor and empty occasionally. If I recall, there is a plug for draining it. What type of oil is used in the hammers you have access to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I was told to run ISO 100 steam turbine oil (which is just fancy 30wt non detergent air compressor oil) its about 75 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket which lasts me about a year running the hammer about 25 hours a week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 I just have to smile.... I made some modifications to the muffler cone today (widened the top a bit and made the hole in the bottom smaller). Before I put it back in the 3B, I put the plate with the holes in so I could videotape how it ran before... .. It ran different than it did before I started making changes. OOPs... can't go back all the way to "before" I made ANY changes, because I also changed the leather seals. So when I put the plate back in, I was running with those new seals. Unfortunately, they are leaking more air than before I changed them (they didn't leak more initially, but they must have settled in more). Remember.... I changed them because I was getting a brown gunk on the ram..... Well.... I'm not getting that any more, but the seals are leaking more air (I can hear it...and that must be why the hammer is running different still).. I knew I might have to replace the leather seals again. The leather I used this time is good leather, but I WAS a little concerned about the thickness. It seemed like it was enough, but it was close (it was just under 1/4th inch). Guess it was not thick enough..... Like I said, it must have settled in. I ordered some 17/64ths from McMaster Carr a few minutes ago. It should be here Friday. I'll get the "new" "new" seals in Monday at the latest (possibly this weekend, but probably not. I might have been able to put some spacer behind the leather, but this way I know I won't have to drop the ram guide AGAIN. Smile.... Smile.... Smile.... A hydraulic hose burst on my tractor today also, and I stripped some threads taking it off... URRRRGGGGGGGG.... Smile... Other GOOD things happened today though..... All around, a great day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I was told to use "chrome tanned" leather for the seals of these machines- supposed to last much longer. I need to do it on mine but am reluctant because it just works great with a little blow by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Dave, very nice video. Thanks for sharing your results, I am curious as to the turnout. I had never really considered the muffler to be of importance in the operation of the machine. I always looked at it more as a exhaust pipe. R. Smith, I would love to know the measurements of the 2 B cone if you have them. My muffler has been repaired, and I don't know how close to the original it is. As far as the leather goes, it does make it big difference, especially in the drawing up of the ram. I have layered thinner leather to achieve the right thickness, not ideal but it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I can look down the pipe as I did for Dave in the next few days. R. Smith, I would love to know the measurements of the 2 B cone if you have them. My muffler has been repaired, and I don't know how close to the original it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I ordered actual seal leather for the 4B... pretty cheap. I think about $60 for two custom cut leather beltshttp://www.afchydraulics.com/hydraulic-seals.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Hey, not to change the subject, but as that this pertains to seals, airflow and functioning of a nazel type hammer, I thought I might hazard a question. Larry, that place you recommended for the leather packing also sells cast Iron rings, have you tried them? It would be nice for me to order all my seals and rings from the same place. Also Mr. Sarver had mentioned making use of polypak rings, any thoughts? There seems to be a bewildering array of different types of polypak seals, which ones would be suited to this application. Also the only concern that would spring to mind about o-ring type seals would be the over sealing of the piston, thereby not allowing the oil to get by the seal to the guides, lower chamber ect. ect. Do y'all have experiences with such a thing one way or another? Mr. Harris, I have two mufflers off 2b's (that's a mouthfull of pluralism if'in I ever heard one) one my shop floor right now. What measurements do you require? Take care, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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