monstermetal Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Personaly I don't enjoy the same enthusiasm for polypak seals Grant had. Reason being is most all the broken rams I have seen failed at a ring groove (unless the whole head broke off) so cutting a sharp edge 3/8 deep slot for a poly seal worries me... My ram as a 1/8" thick by 1" tall nylon wear band that is the seal and I feel pretty good about that. If my ram had nothing and leaked I'd go that route before cutting for a cast iron ring or polypak. My guess is the Califorina outfit only does stock size thin rings that most hydraulic shops use. Rings for these machines have to be custom built so best to go straight to the builder. In the past this meant dealing with Niagera piston ring which where slow and expensive. The ring I just ordered came from Trigon in TX but I have yet to get it so ill have to report back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 I haven't had time to work on the 3B since I last posted. Yard work and preparation for the incoming hurricane (in addition to watching a little football) has pretty much tied me up. Also a two day trip to Blacksburg (Thr-Fri) to spend a bit of time with my son and his family. The storm is supposed to come in tonight. Mucho rain and wind coming (at least that's what the forecasters are saying. I think they are saying SNOW in the mountains west of here. Time will tell, I guess. I closed in the half of the outdoor smithy (normally, it's just a canopy) that contains the 3B. I need to put some lights in there (I have electricity and lights in the original canopy, just haven't gotten to the lights in the 3B addition yet). I have more painting to do also. I love the unpainted barnwood look, but not all the construction materials were old, so I couldn't leave it all unpainted. That is a 150# Bradley Upright Compact under the original canopy... I love that hammer. I think it's one of the best mechanicals of all time. I wish I had installed it in the indoor shop. Gotta go work on a little generator.... The last storm left us without electricity for four days. This storm is forecast to be a lot worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Nice work place you got there . Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 My 2b muffler is off the hammer if you want to handle one Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Kerry Thanks for the offer... but no need. When I was at Matt Harris's shop a couple weeks ago, I took measurements from his 2B cone and tower.... I was able to get a sketch (with measurements) from a 3B from a new friend from California. I've made some more mods to the one I made and am waiting for better weather to replace the leather seals (again) and put the new version of the cone in... Thanks again. Incidently, my neighborhood did not have power outages (not yet anyway) or significant damage from the hurricane. So far we have gotten over 7 inches of rain though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatlandforge Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 This cone could be made in under an hour using the formula frustum of a cone(depending on skill level). You can google it or look in any sheet metal workers book to find it. The beauty is you can make any size cone you need to fit your needs. Forging cones is unnecessary and very time consuming especially this size. If it were smaller I may forge versus fabricate. Dave I am not criticizing your decision to forge, but just giving another quicker option to you and others that may need to make a cone in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 This cone could be made in under an hour using the formula frustum of a cone(depending on skill level). You can google it or look in any sheet metal workers book to find it. The beauty is you can make any size cone you need to fit your needs. Forging cones is unnecessary and very time consuming especially this size. If it were smaller I may forge versus fabricate. Dave I am not criticizing your decision to forge, but just giving another quicker option to you and others that may need to make a cone in the future. These are made of heavy material aprox 1/4" thick. I dont think 1 hr is possible unless made from thin sheet metal. smith out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 "I was able to get a sketch (with measurements) from a 3B from a new friend from California. I've made some more mods to the one I made and am waiting for better weather to replace the leather seals (again) and put the new version of the cone in..." Was there a difference between the 2B and 3B cones, Dave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Dave, very nice video. Thanks for sharing your results, I am curious as to the turnout. I had never really considered the muffler to be of importance in the operation of the machine. I always looked at it more as a exhaust pipe. R. Smith, I would love to know the measurements of the 2 B cone if you have them. My muffler has been repaired, and I don't know how close to the original it is. As far as the leather goes, it does make it big difference, especially in the drawing up of the ram. I have layered thinner leather to achieve the right thickness, not ideal but it works. I got around to this today, Had to climb on the roof and remove the exhaust pipe/chimney. Measurements: muffler od 5 1/2 Cone top 11 1/2 down Inside cone bottom 20 3/4 down There may have been a plugged weep hole but it was about 1" wide flat inside the cone bottom. Definatly not any kind of large hole as Dave referred to earlier. This is 1942 vintage 2 piece. Muffler ht including cone base 22 1/2 Muffler hole in top 1 3/4 Gap between cone od - muffler id 3/16+- Mine is practically touching on one side. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Sorry I haven't posted about this for a while. I've been working on other things. I hoped to get back to the 3B today, but other events overtook me again. I hope to get back to work on it later this week, but the weather is supposed to turn south tonight for a few days. Since the 3B is outside under a canopy, I generally don't work with it when the weather is nasty. I will get back to it soon though. My current priority is to finish a propane forge lining video I'm working on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 At least you have a conopy :D r smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Was there a difference between the 2B and 3B cones, Dave? Matt... I have references and actual measurements from (2) 2Bs and a (hand) drawing for a 3B (no measurement width for the base of 3B cone or indication of a hole in the bottom of the 3B cone). All cone measurements (except height of the cone) and tower ID measurements are very close to each other (within 18/th of an inch or so). The 3B cone is noted to be about 1.5 inches taller than the 2B cone (I don't give that significance). If this all has relevance for hammer behavior (and I think it may), I believe the most significant measurement is the amount of clearance between the OD of the top of the cone and the ID of the inside of the tower at that point. The size of the hole in the bottom of the cone would also affect that air flow. R Smith's reference about the size of the the top of the 2B tower (1.75 inch) opening is the smallest opening (others are 2 3/16ths openings). My tower is not original (my tower measurements are larger ID (where the cone top is, and the top opening). Current status: I have made the top of my cone larger to approximately match the air space between the outer diameter of the cone and the inner diameter of the tower on the 3B information I have. As noted before (IIRC), I have not tested with those changes yet because I have leakage by my leather seals (I replaced them in the middle of all this activity because I was getting a brown gunk on my ram that I believe was coming from the oil breaking down the leather I put in for seals earlier). My next move will be to replace those leather seals (with leather I bought from McMaster Carr) and put in the newly modified cone. I have also made a cover for the top of my tower that makes the opening there the same as the 3B had drawing I have. I'm just waiting for slightly better weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 Yesterday the outside temperature was in the 60's. I put the new leather seals in the 3B. I had to drop the ram guide three times and work on the seals before I could get the guide in place without problems with the seals (the ram was damaging the seals as I raised the guide). It took almost 8 hours to do what I thought would be about a two hour task. When I got the hammer all back together (almost dusk), I powered it up. A combination of tight seals and cool weather (remember the hammer is essentially outside) gave me problems. I'm still using 30 weight oil and the night temps here have been in the high 30's and low 40's. The motor labored and the circuit breaker would pop. The hammer did run for a couple minutes (not well), so I'm confident it will run when it's a little warmer. It was cold today (wind chills near freezing) so I didn't try the hammer. Same cold temps are forecast for tomorrow. Monday it's supposed to warm a little, then be in the low 40s again all week. I have a feeling our warm Indian Summer days are behind us. I may run a propane heater for a few hours in the (mostly) closed-in (but un-insulated) canopy Monday to warm up the hammer and see how it runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Dave, thanks for the update. Sorry about the temperature effect. Got my fingers crossed for your success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Dave, Congrats on the new seals. Good luck with the heater, maybe a 100w light bulb overnight, inside one of the side covers would be enough to take some chill off? r smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 It was in the low 60's yesterday, and I did put a 150,000 BTU propane heater in the 3B cave to heat it up a bit (about 2.5 hours). The hammer ran, but it's evident that the seals are still very tight. I need to either drop the ram guide again to make the seals a bit thinner, or continue to run the hammer and hope they will compress more. The motor was still laboring enough to be worrisome and the circuit breaker tripped twice in just a few minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Dave, I had a similar problem when replacing the leather in mine. I had it too tight and had to remove it and refit. It is amazing that leather can cause a 200+ lb. ram to be that slugish, but it can. The second fit was still tight but not as bad. I think the leather is why my ram stays parked in the up position. For the first time the other day I came into the shop and the ram was down. It will not wear in much over time. Mine is still tight after several hundred hours. I think the oil keeps it new. When I did my leather seal, I removed the upper ram cover, and raised the ram up, then dropped the ram back down into the leather. You can get a good feel for the fit and friction that way. I still had to use a mallet and a piece of aluminum to convince the ram to go down. I'm guessing you ran the motor with the piston bypass valve open, and the motor was not laboring? Just an easy double check that it's not an electrical issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Matt.... Thanks for posting your experience. I suspected (as you have indicated) that just running the hammer will not ease the seal pressure. There is little doubt now I'll need to work on the seals again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 I worked on the leather seals again this morning. I lowered the ram guide and took out one of the leather seals and sanded it a bit thinner so the ram moves easier. The hammer runs better, but is still a bit sluggish. I'm getting short stokes as the ram comes down, but they still lenghen as the ram approaches the lower die (much better than it was before though). Also, it didn't trip the breaker this time (I do think it would have tripped the breaker if I had kept using the hammer though). I'm going to leave it as it is, and use lighter weight oil if I need to (I'm using 30 weight, non-detergent now). The temperature was in the high 50's this morning, but the hammer would still have been much cooler than that. It's likely the leather seals will be just fine as they are and the sluggishness will lessen or disappear when the outside temperature is higher. I've also been working on the forge lining video these past few days. I hope to have all the video shot (for the Super C forge lining) within a few days. After that it is still a lot of work to do the editing and commentary to get a finished video for YouTube. I've given up indicating it will be done in a week or so (each passing week). Fall work around the yard, playing with my grandkids, demonstrating, going to meetings, new toys, working on the 3B during nice weather and the holiday season have all wreaked havoc on any schedule I tried to make for videos. The videos will come, but only when they are ready (more than just the forge lining video are in the queue). Part of the delay has been waiting for minor "ouches" on my hands to heal enough so I don't have open sores and can feel safe working with the chemicals I use during lining. Things I do seem to occasionally involve removing skin from my hands and arms (involuntarally, of course). I hope all of you are as busy as I am and are enjoying the holiday season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Dave, did your short stroke issue change with the change in seal tightness on the ram? Shorter strokes with the tighter seal? Harrismetalsmith and Dave, How did the muffler info work out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted December 25, 2012 Author Share Posted December 25, 2012 My 3B does work somewhat better with the changes I have made. Not quite as I hope for yet though. I won't be doing more work on it till the weather warms up. It will probably be February or March before I crank it up again.... maybe even later in the spring. I am fortunate enough to have a power hammer inside to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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