VaughnT Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Perrin, I honestly don't know what to say to that. You obviously need to run with your idea and disregard anything anyone on this board has to say. Learn by doing, not by watching those that have gone before you. My little brother was the same way when he was growing up.... much to his consternation. I wish you the best in your travels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Pulse, perhaps you didn't see that I later apologized and thanked him for his help. Oh, I did... Respectfully consider this smidgen of noob to noob advice; You can't overcome ignorance with insolence... Wish you the best! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I really did not mean to come across as insolent, rude, arrogant, etc. Like I said, I was tired and already frustrated at something else. Honestly, you guys have given me some ideas that I think I'll incorporate into my eventual design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Perrin, For what it's worth, I'm on my second forge. My first forge was a drum brake. After using it for a while I came up with modifications which to varying degrees improved things. If serving part time as a fire pit is your challenge, I'd say it's unlikely yours will end up looking like mine. I spent considerable time planning my first forge. Going to a hammer in, I found that 90% of the folks attended fell into two camps. The first was the rivet forge available on e-bay from time to time. The second was a firepot hanging from a fabricated steel table. The remaining 10% were propane farrier type forges with one quasi historical "cavalry" type forge. The reason these things are popular is because they work well for most people. Compromise tools are often a case of more becoming less. Masonry does not equal "heat proof", nor does it lend itself to easy modification. A fire pit doesn't evoke images of a particularly handy forge. Aboriginal earthen forges don't strike me as a comfortable way to work either. I have found the blacksmith community to be largely solution-driven folks. Vaughn was clearly presenting solutions that illustrated how often less is more when it comes to forges (and lots else). It's easy to become pedantic about a problem when you're trying to answer multiple demands- especially if resources are scarce. I can relate to that. The deal is that most of us have been young, broke, and inexperienced - some still are. Do your own thing, you'll find plenty of encouragement from people here. Asking folks to tell you how to do your own thing, then disagreeing with the answers you get is how the vortex gets started. It's hard to stop the suck once that happens. For the record, when called out for stepping out of line, it gains more ground to just repeat the apology rather than point to when it was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 I'd love to have just a metal table I could use for a forge , but rigjt now, my options are limited. But our garage is full of junk and our yard is pretty small. I either get to work with what my mom lets me build, or I don't forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I'd love to have just a metal table I could use for a forge , but rigjt now, my options are limited. But our garage is full of junk and our yard is pretty small. I either get to work with what my mom lets me build, or I don't forge. Perrin, I tried to go above and beyond with you with your last RR track anvil thread. I, and others spent a great amount of time pushing you in the right direction. You had specifics set of materials, and we collectively coached you in the right direction... Collectively, there was a century worth of experience in that single thread, excluding myself, guiding you to accomplish your goal of making the best anvil you could, with what you had.... getting you to understand "Mass under hammer blow" was the ultimate idea people were trying to pass on to you, and your repetitive reply was "well, wouldn't that make 4"round stock the best anvil?" & "Well, if that's the case, then why aren't anvils taller and skinnier?"... I kinda got the drift that you were just dead set on calling everyone an idiot by mocking their advice with these "it's obvious your wrong questions"... I see the same kind of attitude in this thread, yet again a collective century of blacksmith experience, and you're going in circles with the same kind of circus act... Take advantage of what this place has to offer, and understand that a majority of IFI members have probably been smithing well before you were flesh and bones, and then some.. Fresh blood is the future of the art, and these guys are itching to pass on knowledge to us "younger smiths", respect that selflessness, and soak up everything you can. I'm going to go against my better judgement, and step out of lurk here to offer up some help. Take it or leave it, or call me a fat bag of stupid, i don't care. Junk is synonymous with treasure; something that will work for you, and will help you towards your goal of creating something to forge with. The essentials needed for a forge are very simple, and can be made from common household trash if need be. Vaughn gave you examples of archaic yet effective examples of solid fuel forges. I'm here to offer you the space saving, cheaper than dirt, gas forges.... http://www.agocschiropractic.com/knives/paintcanforge.pdf venturi burners-http://www.rayrogers.com/venturi.htmhttp://makingcustomknives.com/ These forges are not inferior. Just because they are small doesn't mean they're not effective. The first professional blacksmith I'd ever met did a majority of his work in one of ^^^ these. Granted, his was a 8" x 12" pipe, not a coffee can... They consume very little fuel, because they're quicker to heat up, and you can, if need be use a small propane torch... + they are portable. So, your mom can have her fire pit, and you can have your forge... Think with the minimalist mindset... Some people see bed frames, I see angle... Some see useless, I see 100 uses... Again, wish you the best... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 First of all, not only did I NEVER call anyone stupid, I apologized and I thanked all who helped me. I refuse to keep apologizing for the same thing on an internet forum. Obviously, you didn't realize that I'm looking for the best idea that i can utilize with materials at hand. I think it's ridiculous that you expect me to thank you for posting links to gas forges when I already said why I can't and am not comfortable with using a gas forge. I don't call people stupid because they don't agree with me, but you seem to think you're being some righteous person by trying to "help" me. I give respect where it's due, and quite honestly, in this case, I can respect almost everyone's contributions but yours. I was asking those questions to elicit a response I could learn from. Not to call people stupid. Thank you for taking the time to contribute, but if all you wish to do is call me disrespectful and rude, then repeat a part of the thread, kindly don't even bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Perrin, the biggest problem you face is your own mindset. You say that you're limited in materials, and you're mom wants a fire pit. You don't want to go with a basic neolithic forge and you don't want to go with a complex modern forge. You have all kinds of excuses for your behavior, but you have patently ignored the advise of people that have traveled this road before you. In all of my posts, I have shown you clear examples of people working with the most basic equipment. Early Europeans built some of the greatest weapons with what might be called the most primitive equipment.... and that's not good enough for you. A simple ring of stones with fuel and an air source will work as well for you as it did for them, and they made pattern-welded swords that still awe bladesmiths to this day. Stop asking questions. You have all the answers you could ask for on this site if you just use the search function. We apparently don't know what we're talking about, so travel your own path and re-invent the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 First of all, not only did I NEVER call anyone stupid, I apologized and I thanked all who helped me. I refuse to keep apologizing for the same thing on an internet forum. Obviously, you didn't realize that I'm looking for the best idea that i can utilize with materials at hand. I think it's ridiculous that you expect me to thank you for posting links to gas forges when I already said why I can't and am not comfortable with using a gas forge. I don't call people stupid because they don't agree with me, but you seem to think you're being some righteous person by trying to "help" me. I give respect where it's due, and quite honestly, in this case, I can respect almost everyone's contributions but yours. I was asking those questions to elicit a response I could learn from. Not to call people stupid. Thank you for taking the time to contribute, but if all you wish to do is call me disrespectful and rude, then repeat a part of the thread, kindly don't even bother. As expected. Disregard everything I said, as it was counterproductive. You don't have to worry about any more of my contributions. Hopefully someone will chime in and give you something to progress your situation and get you forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregDP Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Hi Perrin For more specific advice there are somethings I may have missed that would be very helpful to know. What kind of solid fuel are you using? What kind of blower have you acquired? I reviewed your post outside of this thread for some in hopes of an answer I may have missed something right in-front on my face. It happens =P -You asked about the blocks cracking so I'll assume you know about concrete and how water never really evaporates completely from it. I've hear this sometimes leads to breakage or at worst explosions! (I've got to say it.. I'm kinda in the habit of remembering that every thread here will be read possibly hundreds of times so if I'm going through the effort to write a response.. I add information others may learn from.)From what I've been able to infer of your plans. That shouldn't be a problem. - Filling a large cinder block structure with gravel sounds like an awful lot of work and you might not have considered where to place an ash-dump. How will you access it. When using charcoal I've noticed more ash than with coal. It'll insulate your material from the fire in not careful, at worst it'll restrict airflow. How will you clean the pipes after use. (I a shop vac to blow them out on my first forge without a dump) -The high temp "hard" firebricks; the kind you get from masonry suppliers, not often found in home improvement box stores may be worth the extra time and energy to find. At least for part of your project. They're affordable and will last a very long time.. although if using coal, clinker may stick to them. I don't know what type of retaining wall stone you may be using, if they're real stones then it's a crap-shoot. If they're some sort of castable still a crap shoot. -A good masonry supplier will have a spacific morter to use for bbq/fireplace/firepits. This stuff won't last forever with coal (clinker sticks) I think it's rated at like 2200 degrees. The firepit it's self shouldn't get that hot - Earthen, clay or other removable materials will allow you to work with a greater diversity of stock or even fuels. Adaptability, and adjust-ability are two great qualities in a forge (and two different things). This includes air flow to the forge as well as within the hearth/firepot. Being able to use a T fitting a steel pipe and drilled holes to heating lengths or a single pipe squashed some. (I'm sure you know galvanized steel is a heating no-no) - Something I didn't know for a long time was that "clicker-breakers" are sometimes used to direct air flow in a narrow or wide path - I've used PVC going to different sized steel pipes. It's cheap, you can hide it inside the design and with a little heat it'll even bend. - Be aware, but don't be afraid of making mistakes. The best idea I can give you is to build, test and improve. Look around the house at your junk and find suitable materials to test your build in progress.. I tell folks nothing I make is ever "finished" until I'm no longer allowed to touch it. Like you said trial and error -Think about corner to corner clearance of the wall. if you plan to heat the middle of anything larger than your forge that will be important. I'm not sure how big of a circle you imagine. The small it is, the closer to 1/3. of the perimeter should be higher than an inch or two. . The very last thing to consider: If you could make the forge collapsible for storage under $10 could you put the remainder towards a tool? >$100 can make a great forge, I've made several for less than that all together! I know it's been said before, but it's worth reiterating... just food for thought. You've mentioned elsewhere a hammer leaving hammer marks, so I guess this isn't your forge? I've been in your shoes, very enthusiastic and eager. That's a great sign! A new forge can be an intimidating project. Wanting to get it right and made with quality is an even better sign. I don't welcome everyone, but I wanted to do so in this instance. Welcome to a community of people, many whom read often but seldom post. Behind each post is a person who's generally well intentioned. However it may offend, take none. I feel like what I'm saying may appear to be lecturing.. that’s certainly not my intent.. You've been very appreciative. but one last thing I feel obligated to share that no-one ever told me.. I just kinda figured out -- It's easy for anyone to attribute, ideas or sentiments to a text anyone reads or writes to an imagined personality and not the actual person behind them.. we're just hard wired to relate things to our own experiences and views of the world. Don't sweat anything you've said or that's been said. But don't dismiss it. Take some time, reread or just ignore for a time anything that may bother you. For instance I saw your first post in this thread, checked in and out over it's course.. I perceived some things I don't thing you intended-- Granted you thanked people, and you apologized, but that’s not what initially stood out. The more I thought about it.. It occurred to me, "if he really didn't care what the people said.. why would he bother to try and justify his actions or even get offended- sure he doesn't have a good idea of how others perceive him, or how this forum is used by a silent majority.. maybe my first opinion is not who he really is. How could he know how much he couldn't be specificity helped without lots of specific information-- even then the only answers are completely subjective" -- I looked into your other post and I decided I would comment this time (with a lot of consideration), but I'm certainly not the guy who will be able to help when you've got a real specific or complicated question where the answers aren’t so vague and readily available-- All the ideas and intents, perhaps not how they were given, were helpful to you (and others). On a separate note, I've been online viewing blacksmith related stuff for years and I've never seen a burner construction link that accurately stated how very simple a burner for a propane forge could be bookmarked for others. - Thanks it's always nice to find a gem like that. Tiss why I try and read most post here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Perrin it's a shame to see this pattern forming. Repeating your actions expecting a different outcome is a recipe for disaster. The really unfortunate thing here is that you may not realize how you're coming across. In the context of this thread I've seen parallels to the parable of the scorpion and the frog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog I don't know if you've read that parable before or not. I've met enough "scorpions" in my time, it seemed worth sharing with you in the hopes you'll get past this. I've found that the greatest obstacles to overcome are more within than without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Aybarra Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I really do appreciate all the advice. I think what I'm gonna do is build a low firepit with a block removed so i can make a side-blast. Gas, collalsible, table, etc. Aren't really options as storage is way beyond limited. The only thing that bothered me was when he said I asked questions to try and make people look stupid. I'm trying to learn about something I have almost no knowledge of. If I wanted to make people look stupid, I'd be saying it flat out. I've said that I apologize and I do. I won't repeat myself but I do thank everyone who has contributed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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