VaughnT Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Well, I've thoroughly cleaned the old girl out. No more problems, except that she seems frozen solid with rust. I have tried vinegar to eat the rust out. Then I tried a prolonged soak in automatic transmission fluid thinned with 50/50 with lacquer thinner. That stuff is mighty thin and it soon started leaking out of every nook and crannie it could find! The only problem is that it didn't unfreeze the gears. Here as good a shot of the interior that I could get. You can see some serious rust on the topmost shaft, and that has me worried. But the cover bolt on the inside end of the shaft spins free quite nicely and the exposed end of the shaft shines like new.IMG_0408.jpg Here's the end of the shaft as seen from the inside of the impeller area.IMG_0412.jpg Tapping on either end of the shaft doesn't produce any noticeable movement, and didn't free the main gear. The next problem is that I have two large standard-head screws, for lack of a better term, that I can't get to budge. They look like they are just covers for the other shafts, and the thinned ATF seeped out from around both of them. I have tapped on both of them with my hammer to try to break any rust bonds loose. No movement in either direction (thought they might be reverse-threaded for some reason) even when I used a punch to get into slot.IMG_0411.jpgIMG_0410.jpg And, finally, there's a small nut that spins freely off of a threaded section that I'm assuming is the end of a shaft. The thinned ATF seeped out from around the shaft, but I can get no movement on it in either direction.IMG_0414.jpg Because there's a drain plug on the bottom of the gear case, I can't hold the ATF level high enough for long enough, but I can say that the initial dousing produced runs on the outside of the uppermost shaft. Any thoughts on a solution to getting those screws off so I can expose whatever they're covering? Is it time to take the torch to it? Maybe heat will loosen things that the ATF didn't? I hate to give up on her, so any ideas are appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 That's still a lot of rust showing in the 1st photo - would be good to rinse out anything else that might be loose. I would put a vice grip on the output shaft (the one which the fan rides on) and try to use the mechanical advantage of the gear train in reverse. Torch heat is fine but use sparingly - those oddly shaped screw heads are often there for lash adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 Tried brute force with the vice grips, but no joy. Even tried a few solid whacks on the large gear with a punch... and nothing. The biggest issue I'm facing, at least in terms of rust, is that access to the innards is poor, to say the least. My smallest wire brush can get to the top shaft, but other than that I have to rely on chemicals to eat at the rust. I guess I'll clean out the ATF and try some naval jelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Are you getting some movement or is it frozen solid? If no movement at all, then the torch might be the next best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 So how many days did you soak it in the vinegar? At least a week I hope and then washed it and neutralized it and dried it before the ATF. The biggest danger is *speed*; speed not only kills (dating myself) it results in broken parts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 HW, I'm getting zero movement. I'm hesitant to use heat because I don't want the cast iron cracking, but if I can't get the thing apart..... Thomas, I kept vinegar in the crank case for two weeks, and often replaced the older vinegar with new stuff as the level dropped. It turned black and yucky, but I didn't see much change in the condition of the metal in there. I'm now wondering if the vinegar I used was too old and had lost it's acidity. It was a gallon I had in the back of the pantry, and had been opened at one time. I don't even remember buying it! No hurry to get it fixed as I have another one to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I would try rinsing it absolutely clean of all oil - maybe in mineral spirits or something similar, then wash thoroughly in soap and water. Let dry a day then put it in the kitchen oven and raise the temp slowly to soak around 450 or so. Turn off the oven and let it cool naturally. The heat cycle may help free it and shouldn't cause any additional damage. The interesting thing is that you have zero movement. Almost sounds like something is jammed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 I agree, H. You would think that the ATF flowing out around all of the shafts would indicate that it should be free to spin, even if it's a grinding turn. Do these models use bushings or bearings to support the shafts? Think the bearings are so rusted and corroded that they've simply got no spin in them? Would putting it in an oven jeopardize the bushings or bearings or whatever's in there? Trust me, there's is absolutely no movement even when I use a hammer and section of round stock on the upper gear. Bad thing is that I can't see down into the casing and I can't expose the ends of the other shafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 The oven would probably only be a threat to babbitt bearings. Most of the high end blowers had roller bearings but the lower priced ones often had solid ones, although they were usually steel. You definitely have a mechanical jam if there is zero movement so don't force it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 What could be causing a mechanical jam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Gears frozen together by rust where the teeth meet would do it, as would frozen bearings. If you can see every contact point and there is no obvious interference, then suspect the shafts and bearings. There isn't much else left that can bind up so tight that it won't budge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Neglect has killed lots of fine old tools. Rust never sleeps, but don't underestimate the power of human stupidity, either. Bored, unsupervised kids put .22 shell casings and small pebbles down the oiler hole on one of our Scout camp blowers, then cranked until they broke off teeth from the gears. Now we have to put them away when the smithy is not in use. :( Even when you are standing right there, they want to crank it as fast as they can, then reverse direction to stall it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 A few hours in an electrolysis tank will solve your problem and won’t damage any of the parts. It’s very easy to do. You need a plastic container large enough to hold the part, a 12 volt battery charger, Arm & Hammer washing soda (from supermarket), and a piece of iron or steel.Fill the container with water and add a cup or two of the washing soda. Put the part in and connect the negative side of the charger to the part. Connect the positive side of the charger to the piece of steel or iron (the larger the better) and put it in the container so it does not touch the part. Let it run for 5 or 6 hours and check if the gear has freed up. If not, let it run another 5-6 hours until it is turning freely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Ciladog, I don't think electrolysis will work because it's a line-of-sight operation and you can't see down into the gear case to expose the gears. I'm certainly willing to give it a try, but everything I've read has said that it won't work on rust inside tight confines. What I don't understand is how the gears could rust together so well at the tooth joint that the ATF wouldn't get through when the ATF managed to get through the very tight joints around the screw heads. Aggravating, to say the least, and it makes me lean more towards the rusted bearings theory. But, if it is rusted bearings, I can't imagine they would be so stuck that literally pounding on the large gear doesn't provide enough leverage to get at least a smidgeon of movement. The exploration and cussing will continue...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Ciladog, I don't think electrolysis will work because it's a line-of-sight operation and you can't see down into the gear case to expose the gears. I'm certainly willing to give it a try, but everything I've read has said that it won't work on rust inside tight confines. What I don't understand is how the gears could rust together so well at the tooth joint that the ATF wouldn't get through when the ATF managed to get through the very tight joints around the screw heads. Aggravating, to say the least, and it makes me lean more towards the rusted bearings theory. But, if it is rusted bearings, I can't imagine they would be so stuck that literally pounding on the large gear doesn't provide enough leverage to get at least a smidgeon of movement. The exploration and cussing will continue...... That line of sight is BS. Sure it works faster if it is line of sight but it will work. If the anode (chunk of steel) gets all covered with crud, clean it off and put it back in the tank. Try it and you will be a believer. You can't over do it so just keep doing it until the gear starts to turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 Just had a guy suggest using a saws-all to cut through the upper shaft. Says that shafts are commonly available and it would grant access to the lower region. Sounds like it would work........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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