Making a Power Hammer Anvil

[mudbugone]

I'm not doing very well locating a chunk of solid anything to use as an anvil,but today I ran across a fellow with a 20 gallon bucket full of very fine metal shavings from a brake lathe. This stuff is almost dust in consistancy,but probably more like granular just very small and very heavy since it's size makes it very dense.

I'm wondering if there is some way to solidify this stuff in a 6"-8" pipe to "make" an acceptable anvil with a steel plate top & bottom of course ?

How about mixing fiberglass resin and mixing the two and pouring that mixture into the pipe to solidify.?? More metal shavings than resin....the resin only acting as a binder not as the bulk of the filler.

I remember someone stating they mixed water in something similar and let it "rust" solid,but while that might work in the short term I'd imagine it would continue to rust and eventually disappear leaving an empty column. The resin would encase and preserve the particles into a solid mass that should last indefinately.

I considered using the shavings in a concrete mix instead of sand or gravel,but the cement + H2O would generate the same problem as the plain water maybe worse.

What do you think ? Would the end result have any use as a power hammer anvil ? or would it produce a "dead" anvil ?

[Dan P.]

I think most power hammer anvils are made from cast iron, which is pretty "dead". I imagine concrete would do just as well, If you are going to fill a barrel with it. If you look at Japanese power hammers, they often seem to have a sow block set in concrete.
-Dan

[basher]

concrete has a density of 2400kg/m3 steel has one of 7850kg/m3 so you will need a lot of concrete, swarf or even steel dust (of the kind I would use in powder mozaic damascus) packs down to around 60% density if rammed and vibrated.........
it would work but wont be ideal.

[mudbugone]

I imagine this powder material is mostly cast iron from brake drums & discs ,but being as small as it is it's very dense. It's like coarse sand in consistancy.

What about filling a 6"-8" pipe with re-bar and then using this stuff as the filler to fill all the spaces between the bars and welding steel plates top & bottom ?

My biggest problem is that the scrap monkeys have picked the area clean of most anything usable and while I have a large stash of fabricating material from pipe to angle iron to I-beam .... I just didn't stockpile any solid large pieces and now finding that is a problem..

I'm expecting to "get" a lot of railroad tie plates which are 6"x9" and about 1/2" thick and intended to weld them together on edge to fabricate a 6" square post and weld angle iron corners on that to encase the plates,but there are lots of voids in those plates also and this stuff might make a good filler for that also.

Thanks for the feedback..

[macbruce]

Like Sam suggested I make this anvil from 4 pcs of 7'' x 1'' welded together which is way easier to find than a solid chunk, unless you buy it new. I paid .50 cents pp for this stuff. Unless you have an air arc to gouge 3/8'' x 3/8'' grooves to fill with weld I'd band it.....my2cw...

[ThomasPowers]

A very well know modern powerhammer maker welds up his anvils from vertical slabs---see http://www.ironkisshammers.com/

A heck of a better way to go than to spend money on goop! (probably cheaper too!)

[clinton]

I guess that I am blessed with the yard that I go to, they have large rounds at around $ .30 / pound and I can trade them or sell my stuff to them. The price is less than new stock that is selling around $.50/ lb now. I would find a yard that you can deal with like this. An 8 inch round 30 inches long = 427 lbs x .30= $128. If you are going to build something you will need to spend some money along the way. On the other hand if you want to cobble something together I would use rail road track on end, weld a couple of them together and you are up and running

[John Larson]

I have used a variety of methods for creating power hammer anvils. The vertical slabs mentioned by Thomas work exceptional well. The key, though, is to cut them square and of equal length. Not many smiths have machine tools to do this. So they end up using something on the top to provide the proper surface and it is usually a flat plate welded on. In my experience that is perfectly acceptable if it is thick enough and welded properly to keep it nice and square during tack up. Without a flat top plate, note that carpenters use "try squares" and smiths can too. Using a grinder instead of a wood plane is about the only difference in technique. Grind, try the square, grind, try the square,.... Don't stop short of perfectly square and true. Be patient.

My web pictures are a tad out of date and due for replacement in the next few weeks. On Octagon 50s and 75s I now use one-piece billet anvils, fully machined on all six sides including the dovetail socket for holding the sow block. For me it is the fastest and least expensive approach. On larger hammers, without a horizontal boring machine, it becomes necessary to build multi-piece anvils. I machine the billets fully and bevel the edges, and weld them together. I use vertically oriented side-by-side billets capped with a very thick top plate at least 4 inches thick and often 6 to 8 inches thick. Multipass welding is done. Stick can be used if thoroughly ground between passes to ensure no slag inclusions. I prefer to use mig with a dual shield wire (flux-core intended for use with CO2). The CO2 ensures deep penetration and the flux keeps away the oxygen because there is no argon gas being used. In terms of performance I have not seen degradation in rebound from the use of a top plate versus a solid anvil or slabs running full height. What I have indeed seen is that the size of the anvil matters enormously. I build small hammers with 25:1 and 20:1 mass ratioes, and big hammers with 16:1 and 20:1 ratioes. It has been a long time since a customer has wanted a 16:1 ratio. The heavier you make your anvil, and for that matter the heavier you make you whole hammer, the happier you will be. Virtually every steel supply house stocks flat stock, almost always hot rolled. I recommend it over scrap stock that is not solid steel.

[ThomasPowers]

Or you can sometimes luck into something. A friend was able to buy scrap from his employer at scrap rate and turned up a bunch of 6.75" diameter chunks of medium carbon steel. I bought 4 and then sold 2 for twice as much giving me mine for free---so I gave one away to a friend.

The other is the anvil for my treadle hammer project---got a 1" plate for the base too!

[mudbugone]

I'm fairly positive I'm not the only person out in the real world trying to address this issue... I found 20' of 4" square material that could be chopped into short pieces and welded,but what a waste...

I'm only trying to think outside the box in order to make an anvil with some weight to it that doesn't use material usable for other things and without breaking the bank in the process. Yes..I could just buy a piece of steel,but since this is a part time project and not an immediate must have must get done thing...I'm just exploring optional thinking on the matter.

It's very simple to just buy the correct parts and fabricate whatever.....It takes little thought to assemble anything this way,but it isn't always an option for everyone. If I could find an 8" round for $128 I'd buy it.... That just isn't an option under the circumstances & I'm pretty tight with the various scrap yards in my area,but if the material isn't being scrapped I'm high & dry. These guys allow me free access to wander the yards which is not normal access.

I've got 4 pieces 22" long by 9" wide by 1-1/4" thick that probably weigh 50# each.... It's doubtful I'd use them to make an anvil though unless absolutely necessary. From every old photo of hammer anvils I've ever seen the composition of the various anvils look pretty pitiful especially on the old helve type hammers and other than factory marketed machines most appear to be slabs setting on a stump and seldom of the proportions advocated on modern homebuilt constructions.

I won't quote the various sources or the discussions that have advocated concrete mixed with scrap steel for density and even one discussion that advocated using metal lathe shavings. I assume this material falls into that catagory of semi-acceptable materials for building an anvil when finding a solid piece of round or square stock isn't available or at least that was the collective thinking.

I've witnessed similar material that was just dumped on the ground and left to the elements ...the resulting mass became a solid lump that was impossible to break apart and required a large tractor to remove it intact...

When you consider the material cost of fabricating one from thick steel plus welding (and I have the welders) and the fact that material could be used to better advantage in other ways... trying to find an alternative method of making a solid mass to beat on really makes a bit more sense.

I have no idea if mixing up resin would make the mass acceptable for this use...which is why I posed the question... I and everyone else knows the first choice is a solid steel shaft,but I'm after an alternative method to reach the same point.

After thinking more on this I think my idea of filling the pipe with re-bar and then filling around them with this material will furnish a more solid post structure and thick top & bottom plates should finish things off resulting in an acceptable anvil structure for a power hammer or Helve hammer. I wouldn't say it would make an anvil for everyday hand forging,but I won't say it wouldn't either.

[Countryforge]

Dave Robertson, s plans for his air hammer uses the multy plate anvil and works quite well, total cost for his air hammer built yourself about 1600$

[macbruce]

I posted this some time ago and am not convinced in my own mind that it wouldn't work but was afraid to take the plunge.I'm not suggesting you try this but it was an outside the box idea as well. Cast iron has no rebound to speak of so why is it ok? I wonder, but spending time and money on a maybe can cost more in the long run.

[ThomasPowers]

22 x 9 x 1.25 is 70 pounds each in steel.

The problem is that's it's more than just mass---otherwise we could make an very large dirt anvil and be done with it---or use a ton of feathers. It's also how that mass reacts and transmits the impact force of the hammer---most of us have probably used a cast iron ASO at some point. It's very little difference in weight than a HB of the same size; *but* how they react to hitting it with a hammer is vastly different! The HB will ping that hammer back into your face while the ASO is like hitting soft tar.

So it's good that you are trying to think out of the box but you have to take *ALL* the factors in account and not just one. And you are certainly not the first one to go down this path. You might find it easier to find the work of other peoples and use it as a springboard rather than re-inventing the wheel de novo et deja vu

Most of the suggestions do not transfer energy efficiently and some like concrete do not stand up to repeated strikes with the interface between the concrete and the shell gradually powdering and so losing efficiency of energy transport So stop thinking so much about mass and do think about the energy in the system!

Off for the weekend

[pkrankow]

Might not be ideal feed, but you could make a cupola and cast some iron.

Phil

[mudbugone]

http://www.iforgeiro.../19717-pb-mass/

I posted this some time ago and am not convinced in my own mind that it wouldn't work but was afraid to take the plunge.I'm not suggesting you try this but it was an outside the box idea as well. Cast iron has no rebound to speak of so why is it ok? I wonder, but spending time and money on a maybe can cost more in the long run.

That was a tough break on that anvil post. I too considered lead,but assumed it would only deaden the blows. I just discovered the other day that the Spencer tire hammer tups are lead filled,but I'm assuming the action of the tup would be different than the anvil or they wouldn't be building them that way...

That thread was from over a year ago so this subject is still an issue.

I'm surprised no one brought up this type of filler material in that discussion. I don't recall where I read a thread about lathe turning material used in this manner. I actually hadn't thought about it much and wouldn't have had I not noticed this big bucket of fine granular metal while looking for some lead weights....

[macbruce]

I had a treadle hammer with lead in the tup, ok for that I think but rapid hammering would give you a deadblow hammer eventually cause the lead would come loose up there and give a follow up blow to a strike, just like a DB hammer....No Bueno.
Curiosity got the better of me a little while ago and I decided to drop a ball bearing onto my 4x4x7'' ph die...excellent 80% or so....The a36 below was lousy.....15% as to be expected. I spose a LG die would do as well with a cast iron anvil below the die which would rebound less than the a36....Now dirt or feathers aren't tough enough for the job but a tube with lead, concrete or perhaps depleted uranium would hold up....Go for it Mud!.... B)

[mudbugone]

Now those are interesting observations.... especially the tup with lead one. I'm wondering if anyone has had issues with the Spencer tire hammer tups loaded with lead ?

15% rebound ....that's pretty low. I doubt I'll try the solid powder anvil,but I don't think filling a piece of pipe with rods and then filling the gaps with this stuff is out of the question... I won't be out much in the way of cost and it might be helpful to someone else even if it doesn't work out.... Like Edison said he discovered a thousand ways NOT to make a light bulb ! LOL

If nothing else I'll have a few hundred pounds of filler for the hammer base.

I'll let everyone know what happens either way it works out. If I get Lucky I'll find a solid block instead (I'd snag the one someone gave my Uncle that's 6x8 x 36" long ,but he'd know it was me)

[r smith]

You should quit messing around, get the 20' stick of 4x4 and cut it into pieces for your anvil. 8x8 solid should do nicely. maybe even a small piece for tup. There will be plenty left over to send to me for giving you such a valuable gem of advice. :P

[mudbugone]

LOL..Now why didn't I think of that :D

If this was a make or break tool needed to make money it wouldn't make much sense fiddling with this...It isn't. I'm a notorious scrounger and always looking for another way to accomplish any task other than when making a buck is involved.

I intend to build a helve and some sort of upright hammer and my Uncle wants one also. Between us I'm sure we have most everything required except the anvils.... I'm determined to whip this problem if at all possible it's just that simple. I seriously doubt this can't be accomplished,but I'll let everyone know either way.

I'm not trying to build a very large hammer or trying to make a production hammer ...just something that saves some effort and allows me to use both some excess material laying around and allows me to get some use from the thousands of dollars worth of welding machines I've accumulated and don't use much. I could sell just one and buy a complete hammer ,but where's the fun in that . I want to do this I don't have to do it this way.

[dan_m]

Just go for it, sounds like like you haven't got much to lose and you can always make a new anvil if it doesn't work out. You'll help some people out down the road regardless, whether it's by proving or disproving an idea. New and awesome things don't come about by doing what everyone else has already done.

[basher]

I second just trying it, you will need a big anvil due to its low density, power hammer anvils are mainly about mass and inertia .
I have a stump anvil with a steel box section filled with scrap and concrete I'd say it weighs about 1/3 to 1/2 a solid steel bar of the same size.
It works OK though but is quite dead and makes a "tock" sound.
what you are suggesting is not the "best" idea for making an anvil nor second Best but it will work so why not try it . if you don't like it go steel.

[r smith]

Mud, of course an anvil can be made from what you are talking about but like thomas powers said earlier it will be like using an ASO from harbor freight instead of a good anvil. It seems from your posts that no matter what piece of steel you come up with you will look at it and say it is a shame to use that nice piece for this anvil, since I am building it it needs to be junk. Well if you do make an anvil out of the waste you have collected and glue it all together with something (resin, concrete, rebar, moosepucky etc....) you will have time invested and then think that you have to keep using it to justify the time spent no matter how poorly it performs. It will work good enough that you wont want to change it. Since you don't want to make a solid anvil you will never know its lack of performance. Use some real steel for the anvil and use the brake turnings to add mass to other parts of the hammer like filling all tubesteel pieces.
More priceless gems. :lol:

[mudbugone]

From a long time back in an old blacksmithing archive article..

IRON CEMENT

A cement for stopping clefts or fissure of iron vessels can be made of the following: Two ounces muriate of ammonia, I ounce of flowers of sulphur, and I pound of cast-iron filings or borings. Mix these well in a mortar, but keep the mortar dry. When the cement -is wanted, take one part of this and twenty parts of clean iron borings, grind- together in a mortar. Mix water to make a dough of proper consistence and apply between the cracks. This will be useful for flanges or joints of pipes and doors of steam engines.

Yet another formula...

Iron-Rust Cement The iron-rust cement is made of from fifty to one hundred parts of , pounded and sifted, mixed with one part of sal-ammoniac, and when it is to be applied moistened with as much as will give it a pasty consistency. Formerly flowers of sulphur were used, and much more sal-ammoniac in making this cement, but with decided disadvantage, as the union is effected by oxidizement, consequent expansion and solidification of the iron powder, and any heterogeneous matter obstructs the effect. The best of sal-ammoniac is, I believe, one per cent of the iron borings. Another of the same kind is made by mixing four parts of fine borings or filings of iron, two parts of potter's clay, and one part of pounded potsherds, and making them into a paste with salt and water. When this cement is allowed to concrete slowly on iron joints, it becomes very hard. Read more:

ironboringswaterproportioncomposition

http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/metal/Builder-Mechanic/Iron-Rust-Cement.html#ixzz1s1sfwtwo

[pkrankow]

How much charcoal can you get hold of? I was reading about casting iron and the sand size filings are considered by some to be a very good choice as they melt almost immediately in a reducing fire.

Phil

[Stormcrow]

If you feel like taking a road trip, Ashley Salvage here in San Antonio has some big chunks of steel, some in 4" square, some in 5" x 6", some in large round, some thick plate. It's where I got much of the steel for my power hammer, and the price was something on the order of $0.25 to $0.35 per pound.

But then you run into the same mentality that R. Smith pointed out.