Help identifying another (similar) anvil

[alxrbk]

Hi Everyone,

As this will be my first post, I think I should probably give you some background information; my name is Alex, I'm 23 and I live in Yorkshire, England. My brother does a lot of 'Living History' work (reenactments, authentic 10-13th century living, etc.) and since I've always wanted to get into smithing I thought that helping him would be the perfect jump-start to my education.

So I've read a few books (Basic Blacksmithing, Harries and Heer and The Modern Blacksmith, Weygers), I've lurked around on anvilfire and i've watched a ton of instructional/crafting videos (Mostly the ones on this channel), and I think I'm ready to start hammering stuff; I don't want to craft anything yet, just get a feel for the experience and see if it's really something I'd enjoy. I'm looking into classes in my area, but in the meantime I'd like some information on an anvil which, for the last 60 years or so (apparently) has been sat by the back door of my house.

I'm told that this anvil was given to my grandfather by a local smith who is unfortunately no longer alive (I would have loved to ask him some questions about it!), but that's about all I know. I'd estimate that it weighs between 80 and 110 lbs, and it's pretty beaten up, but that's about all I know. I can't make out any kind of lettering or insignia anywhere on the thing, but to me it looks pretty similar to the anvil in this topic.

Anyway, time to get to the point. Here's the anvil. I've tried to get a picture of every face, from angles which (In my inexperienced opinion) are the most helpful. I'd like to know:

1) Is there any surefire way of identifying this thing?
2) What is it? How old might it actually be?
3) Is it at all suitable for my early forays into smithing?
4) If not, is there any way to make it suitable?

I'm currently a student, which, for me, means that I have pretty limited funds at the moment (at any moment!), so it would be fantastic to find out that I can actually start working without too great a financial investment. I've got a ton of scrap metal lying around in my garden, a workshop full of tools and everything I would need to make my own forge (I'm hoping that a compressor is suitable, but if not I'm sure I can find a haridryer or something similar lying around). I'm open to any advice, and if the response is 'learn more' or 'find someone to teach you' then I'm prefectly willing to wait. I want to do this right.

Anyway, I digress. Any help you guys could offer would be very much appreciated.

Alex

[Old N Rusty]

That looks (to me) like it is an old English anvil often called MOUSEHOLE. The underside of the horn looking like a boat hull and the general shape gives me the impression that it is one. I am the owner of one like it, and love it for striking because of it's so thick under the hardy hole. Much more metal than my HAYBUD. You should enjoy learning blacksmithing with it. Maybe a hundred years old and in pretty good shape too. Use it and do not worry about the sway back, that came honestly from years of hard work, and you will find it usefull for straightening work more so than an absolutely flat new anvil.

[basher]

that looks to be a fine anvil to start on . probably only 100 or so years old or newer .
have a look around the anvil for any writing or numbers . try may give an idea as to who made it . If you cant fully read them then try wax on paper as if you were doing a brass rubbing .
there is a strong yorkshire smithing community .and at least a couple of people in your neck of the woods who teach classes . and others further afield. having your own tools to work on and also taking a class or two would be a great way to learn.

[alxrbk]

Thank you both for the replies, I'm going to have a go at creating a simple forge tomorrow using some selby coal; is there any way of determining its suitability? Like a simple test I might perform? Usually our coal comes from the local post office, so I'll head down and ask about it, but I doubt that they'll have much expertise.

Since it's going to be my first time working with heated metal, do you have any suggestions regarding the metal in question? I have access to old scaffolding bars from around 1970/80 and a multitude of blunt files, old tools, hoes, car parts, etc.

On the same topic, what's the best thing to aim towards to begin with? I was thinking I'd try something simple like bending and drawing down, with no particular aim other than to attempt each technique, though if there's a tool or item which I could aim towards making i think it would add a sense of accomplishment once (if!) I make it. Let me know if this seems like trying to run before I can walk, I have no desire to rush things and end up hurting myself.

I have some thick, non-synthetic (leather) gloves, some long handled tongs, a multitude of cross-peen, ball-peen and sledge hammers, and will be sure not to wear any synthetic fabrics (melting clothes doesn't sound fun!). I will also be wearing both eye and ear protection and steel-toed boots, starting as I mean to go on.

Am I missing anything out? Also, given the nature of my new questions, should I delete this post and repost a new topic in the 'general discussion' section? I know that this kind of thing is covered in both literature and general consensus but I'd like confirmation that I'm heading in the right direction.

have a look around the anvil for any writing or numbers .

I'll make a rubbing asap, so far it's been pretty difficult to make out any kind of inscription on the sides; is it unusual for there to be no markings whatsoever?

[Old N Rusty]

It is not unusual for an anvil to have no markings on it at all. The shape of that anvil is almost uniquely mousehole, a fine old tool ! You should start with a burn-up of a bit of mild steel. build a nice high hot fire, stick a piece long enough to hold with no gloves in it, and heat it, removing it from the fire often, and carefully LOOK at it. see the colours (british spelling) of the hot end, observe how much is glowing hot . don't hammer it yet this is an educational moment , place it back in the fire after a few seconds remove it .is it sparking? at something near WHITE hot you should see a lot of sparks and a somewhat bubbly surface, stick it back in the fire a few more seconds remove it and see BURNT metal, then stick the bar in the water and cool it down enough to touch . then hold it over the far edge of the anvil a very short distance about 1/4" it should only take a TAP with the hammer to break off the end observe the crystal size of the burned bit , break off another bit , look, break another bit , it should show smaller crystals and be harder to break. repeat till it bends instead of breaks.This exercise shows what you need to know about the high end limits of your steel. One day you will need to know that. Make yourself a fire rake, and tongs, make lots of tongs.Have fun!

[Elemental Metal Creations]

Hooks - S hooks Drive hooks C hooks. Good practice and they come in handy for a lot of things.

[alxrbk]

Thanks Rusty, I think I'll definitely give that a shot, it gives me a chance to familiarise myself with the materials I'm working on. Plans for tomorrow are to set up, attempt your exercise and then (if there's time) practice bending and see about making some S hooks (cheers phoenix!) really looking forward to this now; I was worried that my anvil would be useless but you've all alleviated my concerns considerably! I'll post any further results or questions in 'General Discussion' tomorrow evening :D

[Dan P.]

That anvil looks like a cracker! It might be a JB (most common of that type in this country, it seems)?
For forging, seek out coke, can be bought from ebay or from a blacksmith or farrier in your area.
Stay away from scaffolding tubes, they are usually galvanized, and when heated give of zinc fumes. Zinc is a heavy metal and as such its fumes are poisonous, and make a big white stink too.
For a blower, scour ebay for a bouncy castle blower. They can be found second hand for quite cheap and have a lot of oomph. Control the blast with a slide.
-Dan

[alxrbk]

Ok I had a go today, I'll post the whole story in GD

[ThomasPowers]

Note that Postman has identified over 250 British makers of anvils and a whole lot of them look like mouseholes as some of them had worked in that plant before going on their own!

If it has no readable marks then you're pretty much out of luck---however the proof of the anvil is in the pounding *NOT* the name!

The basic style dates to after the 1820's when the pritchel hole was added to the London Pattern.

Note that this is not correct style for medieval demos where more of a saller cube with a stake on the bottom would be appropriate for a travel anvil and "Cathedral Forge and WaterWheel", Gies and Gies; has several period illuminations of medieval anvils and forges in use.

I do Y1K demo's and have a 25" anvil that a friend forged for me from some 5.25" stock. I also made my own T stake anvil from a RR spike driving sledge by forging a shaft for it with a tenon that I hot riveted the sledge eye on at one end and a spike at the other for a short stump. (2.5" sq stock, ended up about 36" tall)

As for things to make: start out with mild steel and take a look at medieval cooking equipment! (IRON AND BRASS IMPLEMENTS OF THE ENGLISH HOUSE, Lindsay, J. Seymour) has some ideas.

As you get better forging start working with higher carbon steels and real wrought iron (all modern steels are out of period for medieval times. Real wrought iron was king until the 1850's when the Bessemer/Kelly process was invented)

[Dan P.]

As you get better forging start working with higher carbon steels and real wrought iron (all modern steels are out of period for medieval times. Real wrought iron was king until the 1850's when the Bessemer/Kelly process was invented)

Wrought iron (puddled iron) is out of period for medieval times as well, I'm afraid. It has about as much in common with pre-1780's charcoal iron as it does with mild steel.

[ThomasPowers]

Now did I say puddled iron? *Bloomery* wrought iron was what was produced in the first iron smelters and up through the high/late middle ages when some of the indirect methods started to be used. (cf Waloon method)

And even puddled WI is a *whole* *lot* *more* like medieval bloomery iron than mild steel ever was or will be. The grain and ferrous silicate inclusions are quite similar, the more modern versions tend to be rather "cleaner" whilst the older ones more heterogeneous.
I've smelted iron in a bloomery and the material produced was quite similar to some wagon tyres from the 19th century I have also worked.

Puddled wrought iron's major difference is generally the presence of sulfur in it making it tend to be more hot short. Shoot even the Byers method WI is closer to medieval wrought iron than mild steel and it's about as far as you can get from the bloomery process----*but* the ferrous silicates are present in the final product!

On this subject: May I commend to people's attention "The Knight and the Blast Furnace", Alan Williams, for a modern rather in depth coverage of the materials used in late medieval and renaissance armour.

Now if you want to go pre medieval you can hunt for high phosphorous bloomery irons like were used preferentially for blade edges in celtic weapons (cf "The Celtic Sword" Radomir Pleiner)

[Dan P.]

Now did I say puddled iron? *Bloomery* wrought iron was what was produced in the first iron smelters and up through the high/late middle ages when some of the indirect methods started to be used. (cf Waloon method)

You implied puddled iron when you wrote that "Real wrought iron was king until the 1850's when the Bessemer/Kelly process was invented".

[ThomasPowers]

Ahh so you are implying that the first 3000 or so years of bloomery wrought iron is overshadowed by the last 70 years of puddled wrought iron in the span I mentioned? (1200 BCE to 1780's is less than 1780's to 1850's?). I see your point but I do not agree as bloomery iron is still produced to this day never being totally replaced by puddled iron.

And I still believe that puddled wrought iron is much closer to bloomery wrought iron than to Bessemer/Kelly steel. The greenstick fracture pattern is quite similar as they both have the ferrous silicates spicules in their makeup.

However I feel we are picking at nits. What material would you suggest for one wanting to do an accurate portrayal of medieval smithing? (and although there is evidence of some remote farmsteads in medieval Northern Europe having smelted iron for their own use, in general a smith would NOT smelt their own iron from ore but buy/trade for it.)

[Dan P.]

Ahh so you are implying that the first 3000 or so years of bloomery wrought iron is overshadowed by the last 70 years of puddled wrought iron in the span I mentioned? (1200 BCE to 1780's is less than 1780's to 1850's?).

That little thing we call the Industrial Revolution? Yes, it was a big deal when it comes to iron production

And I still believe that puddled wrought iron is much closer to bloomery wrought iron than to Bessemer/Kelly steel. The greenstick fracture pattern is quite similar as they both have the ferrous silicates spicules in their makeup.

There is more to it than containing slag, but superficially, yes, there is a resemblance.

However I feel we are picking at nits.

You are picking at nits. I am being pedantic. A small but important distinction. To me, at least.

What material would you suggest for one wanting to do an accurate portrayal of medieval smithing?

Pure iron.

[ThomasPowers]

Pure Iron: Something that did not exist and was never used in medieval times? First thing I do when evaluating a "possible" antique is to look for common wrought iron rusting patterns something pure iron will never have. When evaluating scrap I do the break test and look for greenstick fracture, something pure iron doesn't have.

It does forge much like triply refined very low carbon wrought iron but not like the lower grades or the higher carbon wrought irons. Bloomery iron tends to have a range of carbon contents in it. Medieval wrought irons tended to be much more heterogeneous than the stuff pure iron forges like. Pure iron is much more like the wrought irons from the height of the industrial revolution, not medieval.

Why do you think it's a good replacement?

May I commend to your attention BAR "The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote & Gilmour for examples.

[Dan P.]

Pure Iron: Something that did not exist and was never used in medieval times? First thing I do when evaluating a "possible" antique is to look for common wrought iron rusting patterns something pure iron will never have. When evaluating scrap I do the break test and look for greenstick fracture, something pure iron doesn't have.

It does forge much like triply refined very low carbon wrought iron but not like the lower grades or the higher carbon wrought irons. Bloomery iron tends to have a range of carbon contents in it. Medieval wrought irons tended to be much more heterogeneous than the stuff pure iron forges like. Pure iron is much more like the wrought irons from the height of the industrial revolution, not medieval.

Why do you think it's a good replacement?

May I commend to your attention BAR "The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote & Gilmour for examples.

Looking at the chemistry, pure iron resembles some charcoal iron, puddled iron resembles none. In behaviour under the hammer, pure iron is like the best charcoal iron, most puddled iron like the worst. In terms of how it looks, there is the matter of slag inclusions, in which puddled iron wins. However I would add that charcoal iron does not always show slag inclusion when it is worn and/or corroded in the same way as puddled.
The question of materials is one that often turns into a very circular argument, for the very simple reason that it's very complex. In my opinion it is compounded by the widely accepted dogma that puddled iron is the panacea replacement material for historic ironwork. I have used puddled iron to restore missing parts on structures made of charcoal iron, and side by side the comparison is most dubious.

[basher]

Dan ,
whilst I agree with you on the use of wrought iron as a restoration material . As I am of the school that dissimilar material should be used for reasons of identification. I would disagree with you on the use of it for recreation of medieval work. Having worked old bloomery material and new bloomery material (both iron and steel) and victorian wrought iron and pure iron. I would not liken pure iron to bloomery iron (charcoal iron). It does work in a similar way to highly refined bloomery iron but the lack of silicates and general softness make it a very different material.
I have used all of the above in blades and in that setting where the material is etched there is no comparison between the bloomery iron and pure iron , but victorian wrought and bloomery are almost visual indistinguishable (aside from carbon contents).

[ThomasPowers]

I think we are at the horse pate state. If we want to continue perhaps we should generate a thread specific to the discussion?

BTW my dayjob is with an astrophysics research group on a University campus---to be pedantic here you must always cite sources; just making statements doesn't cut it. I understand that in other venues this may not be the case which may explain my use of terms.

[Dan P.]

Puddled iron trumps pure iron on looks alone, other than that, puddled iron is like the worst of charcoal iron, pure iron like the best. But I have said both those things before.
I also think that this topic is well worthy of its own thread, it is actually quite an interesting, if divisive, issue. Perhaps a moderator could help us out?

Concerning citations, I think this is a great idea, Thomas! Perhaps you can lead the way by giving us citations for those two yummy, yummy but oh so rare and very difficult to get a hold of books you mentioned, but didn't quite cite? Because I'm sure you wouldn't just throw out a reference to an academic work without having the requisite citation at hand, would you, Mr. P? Not in a venue so renowned for scholarly erudition as the internet! Oh no no nooooo!
Never!

[ThomasPowers]

I did not find those books hard to get. Here in America we can go to the local public library and ILL them for free or a nominal charge---here in rural New Mexico I have to pay US$1 per book and get to keep it for 3 weeks. ILL is a lifesaver when you live in remote areas and research uncommon stuff!

I'm lucky in that I own all I mentioned save for Tylecote and Gilmour's work. I mentioned the books as much of this is based on the complete reading of the book and not a specific line in them.

As real wrought iron is a much more important item in the UK due to historical aspects; perhaps you can share some resources? I'm sure there are quidelines for historic restoration over there. I've read the Real Wrought Iron Co, LTD site for example and was visiting the Blist Hill museum when they were siting in the stream hammers for shingling blooms.


(I'll be visiting Hay on Wye this Spring and hope to stock up on more books---I've got a long wish list myself and my study is dedicated to Blacksmithing, historical ferrous metallurgy, medieval arms and armour, historic crafts, etc; I've already started covering the windows with bookcases as I've run out of wall space---of course it was the smallest bedroom in the house!)

So what should we continue this under "Properties of historical Iron"? "Iron over time"? "Choosing the proper material for Historical work"? "Oh No Not Another Discussion by the Wrought Iron Wonks"?

I'll be off till Monday and may be longer as I may have a spot of surgery then.

And I agree pure iron is my definite choice for ornamental work requiring massive amounts of forming. Unfortunately hard to find over here.

[Dan P.]

I vote for "Oh Yes! Another Discussion by the Wrought Iron Wonks!".

There are indeed guidelines for the use of appropriate materials in conservation in the UK. Unfortunately there is the usual communication breakdown between academics and practitioners, particularly in the question of ironwork. The question of what is appropriate for conservation work is not necessarily the same as the question of what is appropriate for reproduction work, or what could be considered historically accurate. The emphasis is on wrought iron in the UK, and it has become something of a dogma, but it is luckily not written in stone and I have been involved in instances where very important pieces of medieval ironwork have had necessary replacements made in pure iron, because wrought iron was seen as utterly irrelevant. But again, that is a question of conservation rather than reproduction.

It's a pity you won't be in Hay earlier, as I expect there will be an epic materials based drone-in at the Conservation Policy for Heritage Ironwork Forum at Holme Lacy (which is not far from Hay) in mid-February.


None of which should detract attention from the conspicuous absence of the citations you promised us...

[ThomasPowers]

I do not see suggesting reading the entire books as a promise for citations, (I did not claim to be pedantic). "Two countries separated by a single language"?

Basically a lot of the books cover the wide range of "stuff" in real wrought iron and the piling/lamination of it as it goes from bloom to item. Much of the early stuff is quite heterogeneous (one of the discussions I have had with some folks claiming on how early iron wire was drawn was due to how rough the early iron was and so it would be quite difficult to draw---micrographs of extant maille links show that it was not a clean high grade material at all).

Pure iron is a much superior material; but it's the heterogeneous nature that drives a lot of how the material was originally worked---a lot of forge welding rather than punching to get eyes for example. Smiths who work with modern materials often do now realize where design is driven by the characteristics of the original materials and so often take shortcuts that the original smiths could not have used. (I have actually supplied materials to several smiths who were sure that medieval smiths worked the exact same way that they did with modern materials and have enjoyed their learning experiences. But then I have been told that I am an evil man...)

If I was told "make a modern copy" then I would be pleased to use modern materials.

If I am asked to make a replica then I ask "to what degree?" and yes smelting bloomery iron will be done if they want and are willing to pay for it.

Wrought iron for a step down from that level with re-working old crude wagon tyres for folks wanting an earlier style material and using a higher grade WI for people not. (When I moved out here I was given 100+ feet of 1" diameter real wrought iron that had been used to mend a cistern after the 1906 quake---100 years out in the elements and I was able to run off the nuts without penetrating oil and with a regular sized wrench! Nice stuff indeed, looks to be triply refined. My knifemaker friends don't like it as it has too little character when etched.)

I get notification of most of the UK conferences from the Archeological Metallurgy mailing list; unfortunately this trip is driven by my wife's interests and I am just the "hewer of wood and carrier of suitcases" As Wales seems to be shut down till after Easter, After Easter is when we will be there. We had 5.67" of precipitation last year. I'm expecting we'll see more over there just during our trip.

Anything hard to find over there but abundant here that I could bring over and drop in the post for you?