Ziryab Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Can anyone tell me if small hand-held bellows (called fire-side bellows nowadays) were in use in Europe in the 10th century? I'd appreciate any information. Ziryab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Probably not. My understanding is that small hand-held bellows were never used for blacksmith forges because they were too small for that function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Here's something that would've been used in at least part of Europe about the time you're interested in:http://warehamforgeblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/viking-age-blacksmiths-bellows.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Please look at the wood carvings on the door surround of the stave church of Hylestad www.pitt.edu/~dash/door3932.jpg This lower panel shows the use of two smallish bellows to blow a swordmaker's forge. Not quite the era you are hunting for but a whole lot closer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziryab Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 Many thanks for these speedy replies. They are very useful indeed. That's just what I need... confirmation that relatively small 'hand' bellows were in use at a very early stage in sword making. Thanks again. Ziryab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I run a Y1K forge on occasion; you really need a bellows thrall to forge efficiently. Or I often trade off with another smith so one is smithing while the other is pumping the bellows and then turn about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Well, they were making swords long before Y1K. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymond Sauvage Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Like Thomas Powers said, two two smaller bellows was propably in common use aroud the 10th century and prior. Several iconographic descriptions shows two smaler bellows used for forging, in addition to the carvings from Hyllestad (12th century), two single action bellows is shown the Sigurd runic inscriptions and pictures at Ramsundberg, Södermanland in Sweden, dating to the tenth century. There are almoust no finds of bellows and bellow parts from this period. We have several tuyeres made from sopestone from 7th-10th century graves together with other forging tools. Theese tuyeres have a funel shaped hole in the midle, and the smalest opening at the forge. The wider opening on the other side is large enough to acomodate two smaler bellows. (Like this: http://www.unimus.no...useumsnr=T10624 andhttp://www.unimus.no...museumsnr=T8505) Exactly when larger duble action bellows came in use, is uncertan, propably at diferent times in diferent places. In the county of Lima och Transtrand in Sweden larger, but still single action bellows, was used for forging until the midle of the 20th century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Actually you can go back to the earliest times for forging bellows. Either the sheepskin bag or the skin over clay or wooden bowls were the first step after the blow pipe for adding air to a forge fire. The amazing thing is you can still find them in use in Asia and Africa today. Good thing they are still using them as it would be hard for this type to have lasted. Yea, I know these aren't fireside bellows, but still interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 This brings us to the so called concertina bellows which were used on the Iberian peninsula. I found an uncataloged, 18th century, New Mexico, pair when I worked part-time at the Museum of New Mexico in 1969. Later, Marc Simmons and I co-authored "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork," and we put a photo of those Sena Family bellows in our book. From the explorer, Oñate's, inventory lists, Simmons' research showed that the circular, concertina style dates as early as 1598. In Spain and Portugal, the style could date much earlier, but we're not sure of just how early. The Sena bellows are larger than a pear shaped, fireplace hearth bellows, but the style might have been scaled down for small jobs and jewelry work. At all events, the single acting bellows for smithery all seemed to have come in pairs, and were worked alternately with right and left hands. We still refer to bellows in the plural. Simmons and I visited Señor Franco's shop in Chihuahua in the late 1970's. The 'bellows boy' was using a hand cranked blower behind the forge. When the heat was taken, he ran around the forge and picked up the sledge in order to strike. I wonder how common that was in Europe and the New World...'the back-and-forth dance.' Addendum. I had a student from Galveston who, when he was little and crying and snuffling, was told by his mother, "Quit bein' a beller bag!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 When I saw this video I at first couldn't figure out what the rectangular hole was in the floor. I also liked the double box bellows. I guess these guys are beller boxes?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNWL6HCk3Zk&feature=channel_video_title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I have read that the double lunged bellow came into blacksmithing from goldsmithing and in the 1400's. I'll have to check "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel, Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages" to see if they list it and "A History of Western Technology" - The MIT Press----"A history of technology from Graeco-Roman times to the twentieth century told through historical writings" Note that Theophilus wrote down detailed instructions for building bellows for metal working in 1120 C.E. in "Divers Arts" easily found in English translation by Dover press. One funny thing is that Theophilus does not mention a check valve on the nozzles for the metalworking bellows but does for the organ bellows he describes. Through experimentation I have found that if you space the end of the bellows about the diameter of the tuyere away from the end of the tuyere leaving an air gap that you don't suck in small bits of burning charcoal with proper alternation of pumping (big thing is when you start pumping you build up to full alternating strokes) Single action bellows were still in use through the renaissance in places as they are show in "De Re Metallica---water driven even! and Agricola gives instructions on building them as of the mid 1500's. As for the bellows/striker I would hazard that a proper blacksmith's shop would have enough help to not need the bellows boy to run back and forth! The one person doing multiple tasks is probably more a reflection of the fall in the profitability of smithing in fairly recent times. (I have the MIT press book in my car today to reread while waiting on the Dr...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I've never seen a bellows set up like this one! The dancing blacksmith!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouLqBebKV6E&feature=related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I rather like the treadle bellows in that video. They look rather simple to build and operate. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I saw a smith with a set of treadle bellows at a medieval fair in Cologne Germany; I have not seen any examples show in a medieval or renaissance context. There are many examples of the bellows being mounted at a higher level than the firepot often with a system to alternate blowing them with one pole. With the use of coal the possibility of a bellows explosion arises and having the bellows higher helps prevent this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don A Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 So when does the double lung/double chamber/two-stage bellows for metal working come on the scene in documented history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 From post #12 in this thread: "I have read that the double lunged bellow came into blacksmithing from goldsmithing and in the 1400's. I'll have to check "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel, Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages" to see if they list it and "A History of Western Technology" - The MIT Press----"A history of technology from Graeco-Roman times to the twentieth century told through historical writings"" I need to double check that date to make sure I'm not getting the 14th century and the 1400's mixed up (or the author isn't either) Unfortunately today's research time is allocated to rushlights and crucible steel; but I might get that covered if the Dr is late seeing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don A Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I think he is actually wearing wooden shoes / sabots. Now that's old-school OSHA. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Those are the original safety toe shoe there! Wooden! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanD Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Necroing the thread, but the earliest documentation for double lunged bellows in metal work I have found is in De Re Metallica. The majority of setups show 2x single bellows, but a proper double bellows is shown and described in one spot (Book seven, on assaying). If anyone is aware of anything thing that predates that (1556), I would love to know about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Welcome DanD, have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST it will help you get the best out of the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Deja Vu all over again: Have to dig it out again; but as I recall last time I did the research the double lunged bellows came into smithing from the gold workers around the 14th century. Mostly multiple single lung bellows were used in iron work. As for 10th century; closest good documentation I know would be "Divers Arts" Theophilus, 1120 A.D. that has instructions for building bellows---single lunged. Of interest is that bellows used for the small portable organ described in DA, has a checkvalve; but the one used for metal working did not. With experimentation I learned that proper alternation pumping two bellows will eliminate the inflow issues. A bit earlier would be covered in "The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity", Rehder Unfortunately De Re Metallica & Pirotechnia are a very different technological context than the 10th century... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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