ErictheRed1990 Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Just set up my first forge and it is a brake drum, i have a shop vac hooked up to it .... now im trying out charcoal to see if it works.... if anyone else has used charcoal please let me know... but i noticed it wasnt getting hot enough to actually make the metal 'glow' red or anything, is that normal with charcoal ? another question, seeing as how im brand new to blacksmithing; am i supposed to bury the metal in the charcoals or just put it ontop? any tips or insight would be great thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 You have to put the piece that you are heating down into the fire. With charcoal, use a slower steady blast of air and it should heat up nice. That being said, are you using charcoal briquets or lump charcoal? Lump charcoal will work a lot better. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErictheRed1990 Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 i was just trying i ttoday with briquets, and i noticed it was eating ALOT of charcoal.... so with lump charcoal it is better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 You will still eat a lot of lump charcoal, but the heat efficiency is a lot better with the lump. You can buy it by the bag a Wal-Mart or a lot of other stores. Of course, it would be cheaper to make your own. But, depending on where you live, it may not be practical. Do a forum search for making charcoal. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErictheRed1990 Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Ah ok but it is normal to use alot of charcoal either way huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErictheRed1990 Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Ah ok but it is normal to use alot of charcoal either way huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yeah, it's normal to use more charcoal than coal. Once coal has been coked (breeze being the colloquial term for forge coke) it runs about the same lb for lb. coke is the same as charcoal, using heat to remove the volatiles, leaving relatively pure carbon. Briquettes are useable but have a real downside. Depending on the brand, the binder can be clay which just turns into clinker in the fire, others that use wood pulp or anthracite coal or similar binders are no serious problem. The other main downside is the size of the briquettes, they allow far too much air to pass so you get an oxidizing fire which is a bad thing unless you're cooking. curing the size is easy, take a hammer to it and use the stuff around 3/4". This increases the contact area and makes a more closed path for the air so you get less free oxy and more heat. Lump charcoal is better mostly because it's less hassle if you can avoid the clay binder briquettes. Charcoal briquettes came about around WWII, the military needed wood alcohol for explosives and certain fuels. The process was to close wood chips in large reactor chambers and pyrolize it into charcoal collecting the escaping volatiles for use. Some volatiles being wood alcohol and creosote, both handy at the time. This left literally mountains of charcoal powder sitting around and blowing dust on neighborhoods. I believe it was Henry Ford who started a little in-house contest to see who could come up with a way to sell it or dispose of it cheaply. The winner suggested compressing it into bricks and selling it as stove fuel, the wood chips were being turned into "Presto" logs untill the need for alcohol took all the wood chips, so it seemed like a natural idea. The company used it's presto log presses to experiment and once the right binder was found started trying to market charcoal fireplace/stove logs till it was noticed the workers were using them to BBQ lunch in the yard. That was that. I don't make any claims for the validity of the story, I heard it a long time ago and that stupid tree scrambled some of my junk. I remember things I thought I forgot in elementry school and can't remember what I had for dinner last night. But that's the gist of what I recall. If I recall correctly I heard it from my High school metal shop teacher who worked for Ford at during WWII. Then again, I may be WAY off but it's the TREE'S fault! Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 As he mentioned pound for pound charcoal and coke have quite similar BTU content *but* the density of coke is much greater and so you have to shovel a lot more through to get the same BTU's released in the burning. As charcoal was the only fuel used for the first 1000 or so years of iron working (till the late high middle ages according to Gies & Gies in "cathedral Forge and Waterwheel") and then was still used through today' if you are having a problem it's in the way you are using it or in how you constructed your forge. (Traditional japanese katanas are forge and forge welded using charcoal!) Charcoal takes a deeper fire. So when I burn charcoal in my coal forge I set up fire bricks to make a narrower and deeper "fire pot". As I'm cheap I try to have a raised firepit near my forge and build a scrap wood fire in it and transfer hot coals over to the forge as needed. I built a shovel out of rock shaker wire cloth and so transfer only the hot coals and none of the ash. Your vacuum cleaner will put out EXTREMELY WAY TOO MUCH AIR for a small charcoal forge---about right for a forge heating 4" thick stock. It's obnoxiously noisy too. Try to find a less vigorous fan to provide air. I've build bellows for under a dollar before: green awning material thrown out, wood from an old line printer enclosure. Tubular tapered table leg for the nozzle, etc. (money was spent buying tacks and a sabersaw blade at the fleamarket) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErictheRed1990 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 I have only been using the shop vac as a temporary air machine, in the future i plan on making or buying something else, first plan was a set of bellows, so i dont have to run any extension cords lol. but hey on a good note i got the forge working well this evening at least started making my first set of tongs. now i just need to find a place that sells solid rivets <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A hair dryer puts plenty of air for a brake forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I started with a shop vac, went to a hair dryer, then to a furnace blower before I made bellows. Personally I detest the noise of all but the furnace blower. Along the way, I learned there's a big difference between air flow and air velocity. What seems to matter more in a forge is air flow, velocity just seems to quickly burn the fuel to make clinkers. If you look at the hand crank blowers used by blacksmiths they are more of an air pump than a fan. If you're at all electrically inclined it will serve you well to find a foot switch and a speed control for your blower. The foot switch should be set up so that the motor only runs when you're standing on it. That way you aren't wasting fuel while forging. The speed control makes a big difference getting the fire to behave itself. Building bellows with the help of IFI member input has been one of the best moves I've made. For what I spent cobbling the previous three together, I could have just built the bellows first off! Should I do it again, I think I'd skip the traditional shape and opt for a simpler square bellows box for a more compact arrangement. I like the bellows better than a blower mostly because I find the sound and the motion to be soothing. Another thing that helps a lot is a funnel shaped fire pot. I've heard of people putting clay into a brake drum to achieve that effect but I haven't tried it myself. The funnel shape helps the coke to "self consolidate" as it burns. Again, IFI has some posts about the refractory clay recipes folks have used. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Solid rivets well if you don't want to make your own you can always take an unplated bolt that has some un-threaded shaft and cut it to length, anneal it and use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErictheRed1990 Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 ya im gonna be finishing my job soon so ill be laid off for the winter, so ill have tons of time to build and plan muahaha but how complex are a set of two chambered forge bellows, to make? But, for a rivet what kind of metal would i make them out of? just round stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elemental Metal Creations Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Use roumd stock sized to fit in the hole you punch or drill, flatten or peen both ends hot or cold as suits. Search for making tongs on IFI, there is a lot of info here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErictheRed1990 Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 the very first set of tongs made from scrap 1/4x1"x1' (which surprisingly work) lol and the forge after some messing around with the bricks around it, and of course some of the other toys lol only one of four other hammers i just like this one the most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Those will work and if you draw the reins out some they'll get your hand farther away from the heat and make them lighter. That IS clay brick on your forge right? It doesn't look like concrete but if it is, that's not a good thing, concrete won't survive long and having spalling concrete blasting hot coals around can be a BAD thing. It's not necessary to build a cover over the fire as you have except on special occasions and sometimes not then. You're doing it and that's what counts. Well done. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I am new to forge work, and this in fact is my first post on this forum. I just wanted to thank all of you who helped on this topic. I have had almost identical problems. I have an extremely cobbled forge, and I have not gotten the results I wanted so have added more and more blast. So... Thank you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I would agree you do not need the piece on the top the sides are fine. You pipe that is going from the vacuum could stand to be bigger for better air flow my first forge was made out of 3/4" pipe once I went to 2" it was much better how I use 4" pipe with a slide damper. I see you are using a rail road rail. like an anvil proper height is important. For you and your body. The best advice I was ever given was "Just do it". keep at it you are understanding it and I hope you have fallen in love with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I am new to forge work, and this in fact is my first post on this forum. I just wanted to thank all of you who helped on this topic. I have had almost identical problems. I have an extremely cobbled forge, and I have not gotten the results I wanted so have added more and more blast. So... Thank you all. Welcome aboard Walter glad to have ya! I don't know what you consider an extremely cobbled forge but I've worked with a hole in the ground, a blowpipe in a campfire and a number of other field expedient forges including one with a smooth boulder for the anvil. Did that one to illustrate a point but it worked fine, the hammer made from a cobble on split willow handle was more problematical though. Fire management is one of the, if not THE, most important aspects of smithing and takes practice. That's all this is, a little knowledge and lots of practice. We enjoy passing on the knowledge if we have to make something up, the practice part is your contribution. Anyway, post some specific questions and we'll see what we can do for you. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baddog Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I agree with francis, You should try and move to a larger air flow pipe. We use a 2" BIP you can get at a local hardware store. Also you might think about making your own charcoal. It is relatively cheap and easy. I am sure it is a lot cheaper than buying charcoal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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